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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Aug 8, 2019 12:02:04 GMT -6
Usually I only pre-order trusted bands/labels, in this case I´ve heard the album and love it so no reason to not pre-order it. ... They STILL haven't gotten in touch with you? From however long ago?! Have you talked to Vision of God? If this goes on any longer, I'll add a "THIS BAND HAS BEEN FOUND NOT SENDING ITEMS" note on their Unblack Archives page, I try to be understanding with people, but 2+ months is ridiculous. I get that Yaakov has problems in his personal life to deal with but he can't be doing this stuff.
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Post by Borndead on Aug 8, 2019 12:04:21 GMT -6
If this goes on any longer, I´d did talk to him back then, will write again and see what´s going on. I´m not worried because I can always open a paypal claim, but I hope it won´t be necessary
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Post by julienbakerfan on Aug 8, 2019 19:35:41 GMT -6
I have a bad feeling ToP is going to become the next Hortor--good music, but, uh, questionable business practices.
The Tetragrammaton album is amazing, though. One of the few black metal releases I like front-to-back. Wish I could see some of those songs live--probably never going to happen.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Sept 11, 2019 10:55:51 GMT -6
According to Facebook, Inheritance of Lies WILL be released, possibly later this year.
All drama aside, ToP is one of my favorite black metal bands, and I'm super-stoked for this album.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 6:30:13 GMT -6
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 8:27:20 GMT -6
According to Duane at Vision of God, the new Temple of Perdition album is going to be based on the Kabbalah. (Jewish mysticism)
...so... Not "Christian".
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Post by Bartimaeus on Oct 2, 2019 8:50:10 GMT -6
So, this is more of a "Christians in a band" sort of thing? Yakov was very careful in his comments to be neutral, but most of the members of the band appear to be Christians.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 9:14:16 GMT -6
Oof. This seems to be going downhill quick.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 9:22:25 GMT -6
So, this is more of a "Christians in a band" sort of thing? Yakov was very careful in his comments to be neutral, but most of the members of the band appear to be Christians. Its hard to say bro. It could very well be Christians and Yakov, but Yakov is the only one I've seen talking... I think Stryper is a good example of "its not just what the artist says it is". I mean, Michael Sweet has said multiple times, Stryper is NOT a CHRISTIAN BAND.... but yet, their lyrics are pro-Christianity, and they pray for people and hand out Bibles at their shows. That post I cropped just to include that first paragraph.... but Yakov did mention some "imagery" in albums that is apparently "evidence" of him "not hiding" that ToP is "not Christian".
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Oct 2, 2019 12:15:39 GMT -6
Oof. This seems to be going downhill quick. So, like basically every other time something happens with this band that is not the quality of the music itself?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 12:26:48 GMT -6
Double Oof. Nabbed from the most recent Facebook post:
I wonder if that was Steve's idea.... or Yaakov's...
D:
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Post by exo on Oct 2, 2019 12:40:45 GMT -6
The more of the interview I read, the more sympathetic to him I become, to be honest. I share a LOT of similar views regarding “religion” and “who I will and won’t befriend” type stuff. There’s a reason I’ve decided to move forward with my own music under a different name than I’ve been using. Sounds to me like band and label were NEVER a good fit, and both have realized that it was a bad decision to link up.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 13:17:12 GMT -6
I can relate to that.... and in some degree, I do share the sentiment. I think my own hangups with this currently, has to do with my own personal battle with the concept of "over-generalizing". On one hand, yes, I get what he means, and what you mean exo... count my vote as well. We can all think of examples where people used religion as a power-foothold to do awful, nasty things. I also agree with and relate to quite a few things he says. ...but on the other hand, with statements like this from that interview, " I have always had said they are more Satanists with the church than there ever will be within Satanism. They just do not label themselves.", I can't help but wonder how many "in the church" he actually knows... and why unknown-actual-total represents a majority to him... I would get a similar feeling from someone saying "Nine people bullied me on the internet today. Most people online hate me.". I'm definitely still a work in progress in regards to rectifying feelings vs facts and what people say vs what they mean.
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Oct 2, 2019 13:23:20 GMT -6
So, it was never intended to be a Christian band, but the album needs to be rewritten to be non-Christian. Got it.
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Post by exo on Oct 2, 2019 13:42:11 GMT -6
....but on the other hand, with statements like this from that interview, " I have always had said they are more Satanists with the church than there ever will be within Satanism. They just do not label themselves.", I can't help but wonder how many "in the church" he actually knows... and why unknown-actual-total represents a majority to him... I would get a similar feeling from someone saying "Nine people bullied me on the internet today. Most people online hate me.". I'm definitely still a work in progress in regards to rectifying feelings vs facts and what people say vs what they mean. I don’t think he’s going down the same track you are with what he said. I mean, firstly, he never said anything about those folks he’s commenting on comprising a “majority”, he’s simply saying that those he refers to numerically outnumber “declared Satanists”. Considering the sheer number of people that do little more than walk thru the doors of a church and call themselves a Christian......he might not actually off base. I also believe he’s saying that “Sunday Morning Christians” might as well be Leveyans, they just put another name on it. Again.....that’s another analysis I’m not at all sure is off base. I’m actually more interested in his music than I was prior to things breaking loose yesterday......
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 14:00:32 GMT -6
I’m actually more interested in his music than I was prior to things breaking loose yesterday...... I'll definitely check the new album out, but how much I spin it has very little to do with this drama. I'd be there for the quality of the music. I will say this though, between how some others (outside this forum) are responding to this, I'm once again fascinated how people will take meaning from this incident, and apply it to their existing merch. I can recall a few people back in the day, getting rid of their Vengeance Rising CDs after Roger left the faith.... as if him leaving Christianity somehow transmitted some sort of something to taint the Christian albums of theirs he did. Slight derailment.... I remember seeing this documentary. I forget the title, I think it was from VICE, I may not have the details specific, but here's the gist. So there's like a room full of atheists (or they're people that only believe in stuff that's factually proven) The guy doing the interview passed around a sweater. People were like, ok, that's a nice sweater. Dude says "This sweater belonged to Martin Luther King Jr.". Some people clamored - like their eyes kind of lit up. Do want. Later, he says, "Just kidding. This was Jeffery Dahmer's favorite sweater." Pretty much all of them were like "ew no". I remember the interviewer asking "Do you think there's some sort of essence or spirit from Jeffery Dahmer that now resides on this sweater?" They were like "Of course not!" Him "Then why are you still recoiling from this sweater?" Them - they looked flushed... "I.... don't know....?" ...and then they guessed why they were doing that...
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Oct 2, 2019 14:02:52 GMT -6
I will continue listening to the music as well, but my ToP shirt will probably not see much wear.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 14:11:42 GMT -6
but my ToP shirt will probably not see much wear Just curious bro. Is this so you don't have to explain the shirt / what happened, more or less?
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Post by exo on Oct 2, 2019 14:46:11 GMT -6
I will say this though, between how some others (outside this forum) are responding to this, I'm once again fascinated how people will take meaning from this incident, and apply it to their existing merch. I can recall a few people back in the day, getting rid of their Vengeance Rising CDs after Roger left the faith.... as if him leaving Christianity somehow transmitted some sort of something to taint the Christian albums of theirs he did. I don’t have any problem AT ALL understanding that reaction, because the WAY he left the faith made a whole lot of people wonder if they’d simply been listening to a madman rave the whole time. Words and actions at the time made people question the veracity of the past. It’s NOT an unjustifiable thoaight process. Similarly, in the in the case of ToP merch......a lot of it was sold to people that THOUGHT the band represented something “Christian” to them.....and that band now represents something else to them. It shouldn’t even be a remote shock that folks don’t wanna “represent”, via displaying ToP merch, a band that isn’t what they thought it was, no matter who’s “fault” that confusion is. The band and their merch now represent something other than why they used to for some folks that got into them SIMPLY because VoG is a ministry oriented label.
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Post by exo on Oct 2, 2019 14:48:58 GMT -6
I’ve also had a brief interaction with ToP via Facebook in the last hour.....very honest, very straightforward......and only good things to say about Duane.
The “drama” isn’t coming from the band or VoG.....
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 15:20:36 GMT -6
I think anyone scrapping their merch because a band did something they disapprove of is justifiable. I won't argue with it.... everyone has the right to their feelings and what they do with their stuff. I guess I just struggle with relating to this myself. Sorry if I seemed cold or obtuse about it. I don't mean to be insensitive. I think the closest I've come to "this", is not listening to a few different albums, for a few years, because they got quite a few spins when I was married with my first wife. Obviously nothing against the band, the releases, my ex, etc. but it was a reminder, a representation of something I wanted to put behind me. So I guess my grasp on this is for very personal reasons only? For better or worse, I guess I just didn't take what Roger of VR did as "personal". I still have my "Human Sacrifice" CD and just reviewed the lyrics to see if I remembered them correctly. I can only deduce that if those lyrics were "lies" to Roger himself, in his heart.... well, they are still truth and inspiration to me.
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Oct 2, 2019 15:39:33 GMT -6
but my ToP shirt will probably not see much wear Just curious bro. Is this so you don't have to explain the shirt / what happened, more or less? Basically. I am not going to throw it in the garbage or burn it or anything like that, but I do not necessarily want to represent the band. Not so much because of a Kabbalah themes, but more for the constant drama he manufactures. So, not just because of the most recent news, but all of the stuff about the band breaking up, then getting back together, then not being able to continue, then getting attention and announcing new music.
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Post by _ on Oct 2, 2019 15:42:00 GMT -6
if those lyrics were "lies" to Roger himself, in his heart.... well, they are still truth and inspiration to me i havent read this thread to comment but this right here is fire
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Post by exo on Oct 2, 2019 15:45:10 GMT -6
Also a valid point.
As I Lay Dying is another band where the “trash the merch” thing has been a major thing. I myself pitched all my shirts, and haven’t listened to them more than a time or two since. I still haven’t heard ANYTHING they’ve done since letting Tim back in...... I was/am just SO skeezed out by the concept of “I want to kill my wife and use my kids as an alibi” that I can’t seem to get over it. The unfathomability of it makes the music unenjoyable for me.
There’s reasons for all sorts of feelings, stances, and takes......
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 17:36:06 GMT -6
I was/am just SO skeezed out by the concept of “I want to kill my wife and use my kids as an alibi” that I can’t seem to get over it. The unfathomability of it makes the music unenjoyable for me. I understand bro. ...and yes, that's heinous what he did. Tim has publicly poured his heart out about this. It's pretty much everywhere online. He/the band have also taken a stance against domestic violence and donated proceeds toward that and helping others. I've seen a wide range of reception to his apology and other statements since. Everything from forgiveness to a heaping pile of hate. Some shows had to be canceled because of public outcry as well. I respect anyone listening to or not listening to AILD, for whatever reason they choose.
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Post by exo on Oct 2, 2019 17:54:39 GMT -6
I would LOVE to just sit and talk to Tim for an hour or two, honestly. I hold no actuall “ill will” towards him or anything like that, I wish everyone in the band NOTHING but the best, and I DO believe he’s sincere......but sometimes “broken” things aren’t “fixable”.
Back to ToP.....honestly......finally gave Tetragrammaton a REAL listen. This is quality stuff, and it’s gonna go into a Spotify playlist right alongside Batushka and 1914......
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Post by Borndead on Oct 2, 2019 18:23:52 GMT -6
As it stands right now IMO, there are 2 good things concerning this band...their music(that is awesome) and the fact that Ronny is their vocalist. But to be such a young project and have soooooooo much drama around them, it´s insane.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 2, 2019 19:03:19 GMT -6
Absolute dumpster fire. There are allegations flying around on social media, inconsistencies in people's words (on both sides), ... and more. And the best part is, I get to sift through this disaster, and try to find the truth in all of it, and mould these pieces of stories into sensible, truthful updates on Unblack Archives. Until I get more information, I won't elaborate on anything I said here. But rest assured, it's much worse than you would think just by reading this thread.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Oct 2, 2019 19:49:48 GMT -6
I just now saw something on Christian Metal Facebook about getting rid of the T-shirts for the band, so I figured there was more drama going on. Honestly, 90% of all drama in the Christian metal scene is either ToP or recycled AILD stuff ("Are they still Christian????"). My thoughts on the interview, quote by quote: "I have made this extremely clear at the start that I did not want the “Christian” label nor were we to be considered a Christian band." Uh, then why did you sign to Vision of God? "The Catch-22 of that is what they are doing is pretty much in line with mainstream Satanic Tenants. I have always had said they are more Satanists with the church than there ever will be within Satanism. They just do not label themselves." I can kind of see where this is coming from. For a good while in my life (say, 2011-2015 or so), I identified as a Christian, but my values were a lot more Satanic than Christian--I almost worshipped power, frequently hated God and Christianity, etc. But on the other hand, this seems like an incendiary way of saying something banal, kind of like Zizek's statement that "Gandhi was more violent than Hitler." I can see his point though. "Where I stand is more of a Hermetic and Kabalistic Standpoint in my personal views. This is very hard to explain and I am sure people are going to twist things around a great deal even if I attempt to explain it." Hermetic Philosophy and Christianity are not compatible. They are not the same thing. Not even close. There may be some genuine insights in Hermeticism, but it's not just Christianity by another name. I'm fine with someone who wants to use or appropriate Hermetic or Kabalistic language for fictional purposes, or repurpose it with a Christian meaning (some of the Psalms are re-workings of poems about Baal). But you can't be a Hermeticist or a Kabalist and be a Christian at the same time. In addition, I just want to point out that Panegyrist has lyrics that draw from Hermetic ideas, but the songwriter is, in his own words "a creedally Orthodox Christian." Go Orthodoxy. "I like to use the Term Infinite Living Mind [instead of God]." This just sounds cultish. "I think the human experience is far more evil and dark than anything I have ever experienced." This doesn't even make sense. "Betrayal of Eve is spoken from the point of view of Samael with his words of trying to explain to Eve how God was lying to her and that by eating of the fruit she become like her God." Wait, what? So now we're fully into heretical Kabalistic/gnostic doctrine (unless there's some ironic/subversive subtext to the song that he's not mentioning). Yeah, this didn't need to be on VoG. "Messianic is not Christian. For a while, I was exploring and did a massive research project on the Torah and the Hebrew Roots movement. This opened my eyes to a get deal of things and I learned a great deal I never knew." Unfortunately, a lot of people in "Christian Middle-Earth" get started on these pet research projects and end up believing a lot of kooky, but plausible-sounding thing. I don't know a lot about the "Hebrew Roots" movement; from what I've heard it's a lot of pseudo-scholarship. Personal testimony time: I'm a PK (pastor's kid). I've been involved in the institutional church all my life. In my time, I've seen lots of people pop up in the church with some new idea about how we ought to do things and how everyone was wrong. Most of these people tend to burn out; a few of them end up leaving the faith or committing some horrible sin. In some cases their big idea is more the result of mental illness than genuine Biblical insight. As a result, I'm very skeptical of people who say "This is the new way that everyone needs to practice Christianity" without having a basis in the Scriptures, the Church, and the rule of faith. Ya'akov struck me as one of those people; unfortunately it looks like my cynical pre-judgments were true. I think Stryper is a good example of "its not just what the artist says it is". I mean, Michael Sweet has said multiple times, Stryper is NOT a CHRISTIAN BAND.... but yet, their lyrics are pro-Christianity, and they pray for people and hand out Bibles at their shows. At some point you just have to bite the bullet and call yourself a Christian band. but on the other hand, with statements like this from that interview, " I have always had said they are more Satanists with the church than there ever will be within Satanism. They just do not label themselves.", I can't help but wonder how many "in the church" he actually knows... and why unknown-actual-total represents a majority to him... I would get a similar feeling from someone saying "Nine people bullied me on the internet today. Most people online hate m Good point. I've seen all kinds of horrible stuff happen in church and witnessed all kinds of horrible people exist in church. I would still not say that the majority of people in the church are Satanists. Weak, confused, lackluster, maybe even fairweather believers, but not Satanists. I think anyone scrapping their merch because a band did something they disapprove of is justifiable. I haven't worn my Bowie shirt after I found out he was a pedophile and a Nazi supporter in the 70s. rest assured, it's much worse than you would think just by reading this thread. Don't tell me...they've been selling bootlegged Hortor merch.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 2, 2019 19:58:06 GMT -6
Absolute dumpster fire. There are allegations flying around on social media, inconsistencies in people's words (on both sides), ... and more. Agreed. ...and I too am reluctant to just dump out what I've ran into about this today. Not because it wasn't convincing... Some of it is very. But because I don't see it doing much more than stirring an evergrowing pot... And I think more information is needed too.
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