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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 3, 2019 9:30:28 GMT -6
This controversy continues to grow.
What this looks like to me (as an outsider looking in) - supposedly (I haven't seen the proof, but I'm told people do have it) Temple of Perdition told people in the past, that they (the members) were Christian, believed in Christ, believed in the resurrection, etc.... It appears to me this "Hermetic and Kabalistic Standpoint" (mentioned in the interview) and leaving the label "appeared" very close together. I could be wrong about that. I have never talked with the band directly myself....
....but I talk with Duane of Vision of God fairly regularly, and not only because my own music is released through his label.
Bottom line, there are inconsistencies between what the band, the fans, and the label are saying...
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Post by exo on Oct 3, 2019 10:05:46 GMT -6
Well, there’s been multiple members spread over different continents, and it’s entirely possible that you talk to one member and get one answer and that answer is also not the intent of the “main guy”.
It also seems like Ya’akov has always been fairly consistent in that he’s had an interest in the hermetic/Kabbalistic stuff.....and that can really easily lead to “out there” theological mindsets where one still considers oneself “Christian” simply for lack of a better term......and in time as you think and grow, you feel like that term doesn’t really fit, even if “your beliefs” don’t actually change. Maybe his version of “I’m Christian” never ACTUALLY fit well with the modern,Evangelical perception o what that is. He ALSO, from the outside looking in, has some “flighty-ness” in how he approaches other things.....seems kinda “reactionary” about things rather than “centered”.
It’s ENTIRELY possible that from his viewpoint “nothing has really changed”, and yet from other, outside viewpoints EVERYTHING has changed because the whole relationship with VoG ends up being a case of trying to shoehorn esoteric beliefs into a Western Evangelical box.....
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 3, 2019 12:25:06 GMT -6
I'm really really sorry everyone, but THIS... made me laugh. It’s ENTIRELY possible that from his viewpoint “nothing has really changed” I agree. I truly think its this.. supposedly (I haven't seen the proof, but I'm told people do have it) Temple of Perdition told people in the past, that they (the members) were Christian, believed in Christ, believed in the resurrection, etc + referencing a few things Yaakov has said (I'd make screens, but its still written on their Facebook) They were never a Christian band. (technically Christians or some Christians in a band, but not a "Christian band" - if that makes sense.) I'm sure this was clear to Duane.... and he was fine with Christians in a band on his label since their lyrics weren't blatantly incompatible. ...but also like Yaakov said on FB, the new album is going to have a focus on the Kabbalah, and he figured that WOULD be incompatible with VoG, so, time to part ways. I think some of the fans have misinterpreted, inflated and exaggerated this - drawing an inaccurate conclusion. Everyone's beliefs and identifiers, I think have stayed the same. The "not a Christian band" took a different direction in their lyric approach, which is less compatible with a Christian ministry record label. Some fan's math thought they were "Christian", therefore, thought the band was Christian + leaves a Christian label + new album is about the Kabbalah = "ToP betrayed us" Actual math Christians in a band IS NOT a Christian band (lyrics about Christianity) + leaves label due to new lyric incompatibility with Christian mission = actually did everyone a favor For me, the separation, lyrics, beliefs - I think I've got my head wrapped around it. So that's it, right? Clarified matter? Well.... not really unfortunately. I spent hours yesterday, wasted honestly, trying to figure out how to both avoid an oil drum of worms, and reply to a true point in this thread. The epitome of chomping at the bit.... but I will wait, as I believe what I'm referring to will most likely be public soon enough. Then.... I will feel better about discussing. XD
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Oct 3, 2019 13:36:01 GMT -6
Is it bad that last night I was, albeit unintentionally, eating popcorn as I read this thread and their Facebook page? Sometimes I just like to eat white cheddar popcorn.
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Post by exo on Oct 3, 2019 13:42:10 GMT -6
I have a few more thoughts on all this.......but I’m not sure I wanna take the chance and ruffle feathers.
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Post by frozenfire on Oct 3, 2019 19:45:00 GMT -6
Personally I came into the "Christian" metal scene after growing up outside of it. I came to Christ at a later time in life (30yrs old, now 40) after being self deceived in the Church my whole life prior. I realized to know Christ and truly love and live for him was far different than just a profession, a baptism, a prayer, a confirmation. Yet, when I was born again I dove into Christian metal. I wanted to hear something that edified when every ear worm I had was negative or worthless. I realized within about 2 years that many young kids were in Christian bands but had no real faith. They grew up like I did in the church, would make "bold for Christ" albums and would walk away. Fans were "shocked" and "hurt" by this. I was disappointed to find this a somewhat common phenomenon (especially with a few dearly loved bands) but I understood, profession is not the same as "born of the Spirit." I lived that myself.
So, I look on this situation like I do many other things in this scene, without surprise. I don't hold Christian bands to some level of integrity or high standard of behavior or doctrine. If I did I would never listen to any of it. Theology can be whacked underneath the surface, lives could be a wreck but I don't know these people and theology can be little more than surface level on a single album. I hold my commitment to a band, for that reason, at arms length. If the lyrics edify I can listen. If I know something more positive about the members I maybe be more inclined to listen. If I know something more negative I may shy away. Otherwise I take what I hear.
For example:
Temple of Perdition had questionable imagery and lyrics from the beginning. It was made known and questioned from the start. I bought. I listened. I enjoyed. Lyrically, nothing incredible but dark. I don't mind critique of Christianity. The church needs loving, truthful rebuke, harsh as it might sound. Do I regret the album now? No. Will I listen as much, probably not.
Lo Ruhamah had extremely dark, even terrifying lyrics on their last album. I wondered at the questionable themes and truthfully I never could confirm if they were Christian by what I'd heard prior. I held the album as enjoyable but a bit at arms length. Yet, when a member revealed on The Christian Metal Realm what I had seen in the lyrics and confirmed his faith I drew closer and have listened with a greater peace.
Panegyrist is in between these two right now. I have found reason to see and find their lyrics edifying. Their vocalist (the only member to profess any faith whatsoever) has esoteric beliefs, unconventional. Not knowing ultimately where his heart is I listen still. I will evaluate them album by album if I care to continue.
To me the problem is the false standard people imagine and a projection of desire onto bands, labels and individuals. They become expectations and attachments but they aren't based in reality. People in this era of entertainment feel like they "know" people more than they do and accept their limited knowledge as more full. The reality is we know very little and shouldn't be so attached and subsequently so hurt when reality arises, brokenness is revealed and unpleasant, uncomfortable truths come to light.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Oct 3, 2019 20:36:58 GMT -6
Panegyrist is in between these two right now. I have found reason to see and find their lyrics edifying. Their vocalist (the only member to profess any faith whatsoever) has esoteric beliefs, unconventional. Not knowing ultimately where his heart is I listen still. I will evaluate them album by album if I care to continue. Elijah Tammu is a distant acquaintance of mine. I knew him slightly a few years back. From everything I can tell, he is Eastern Orthodox. As he says in one of his interviews, he holds to the Nicene Creed. So, unless I have reason to believe otherwise, I think everything expressed by Panegyrist is spiritually on-target, albeit expressed in a weird, cryptic way.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Oct 3, 2019 20:37:23 GMT -6
Big news: Ya'akov is renaming Temple of Perdition "Batushka."
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 5, 2019 7:39:50 GMT -6
I think this thing has kind of blown over.... with the fans. I think what helped was Ya'akov did some explaining.... (instead of just calling people bigots and banning them)
One of the guys that recorded Henna's vocals for ToP stated that she left the band as well. (though I haven't seen the band announce this yet?) There were some personal reasons, but also, the "new direction" the band is heading is one reason for this.
I guess that's really the point. The band is "evolving" and this is a "new direction" they're heading. With saying that, I think its fair to say that their past releases do fit under the Christian banner.
Even though Yaakov didn't directly mention this, he indirectly did.... with stating that he's re-writing Tetragrammaton to "fit the secular format". Afterall, a non-Christian band changing a prior release to fit a secular format (which something non-Christian would already fit) makes no sense whatsoever...
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 5, 2019 18:04:45 GMT -6
One of the guys that recorded Henna's vocals for ToP stated that she left the band as well. (though I haven't seen the band announce this yet?) Where did you hear this? Duane confirmed it. I think this thing has kind of blown over.... with the fans. Indeed! I had a civilized conversation with Yaakov last night and we worked out some updates to Temple of Perdition's page on Unblack Archives. Several accusations that were originally leveled against Yaakov (one example is, he allegedly didn't send out some Temple shirts that people were owed) have all been disproven now. And yes, Yaakov has gone into more detail explaining what happened. I think a lot of it involves a bit of a change in beliefs on his part -- he originally identified as a Christian, and still seems to hold to certain Christian teachings, but at this point, they're mixed in with a bunch of kabbalism and other spiritual concepts, to the point that he no longer feels comfortable connecting his music to the Christian metal scene, or asking a Christian label to release his music. Granted some people have argued that the band's theology wasn't that "Christian" in the first place, but what I'm saying is, they were still undeniably part of our scene.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 6, 2019 8:27:21 GMT -6
Where did you hear this? Duane confirmed it. I heard it from Markus on the CMR - he recorded Henna's vocals for Temple of Perdition. I think a lot of it involves a bit of a change in beliefs on his part -- he originally identified as a Christian, and still seems to hold to certain Christian teachings, but at this point, they're mixed in with a bunch of kabbalism and other spiritual concepts, to the point that he no longer feels comfortable connecting his music to the Christian metal scene, or asking a Christian label to release his music. Not trying to compare apples and fire-hydrants here, but I would say that someone (a band) having a mix of beliefs (with some Christianity) who has SOME lyrics that are compatible with our faith, is not as serious as "an offense" to our scene, as a Christian band or a store who blatantly rips people off or bootlegs. (anyone with any moral compass SHOULD agree theft/stealing is quite wrong.) Granted some people have argued that the band's theology wasn't that "Christian" in the first place, but what I'm saying is, they were still undeniably part of our scene. Of course!
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 6, 2019 10:32:20 GMT -6
Not trying to compare apples and fire-hydrants here, but I would say that someone (a band) having a mix of beliefs (with some Christianity) who has SOME lyrics that are compatible with our faith, is not as serious as "an offense" to our scene, as a Christian band or a store who blatantly rips people off or bootlegs. (anyone with any moral compass SHOULD agree theft/stealing is quite wrong.) Oh, yeah, absolutely. I don't think the problem was ever his beliefs or lyrics, in and of themselves. The problem was that he was (allegedly) being dishonest about them. ... Though it does still blow my mind a bit that so few people were bothered by several instances of Hortor bootlegging merchandise and taking money from people, but the whole scene was ready to burn Temple of Perdition at the stake...
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Oct 6, 2019 11:09:15 GMT -6
Though it does still blow my mind a bit that so few people were bothered by several instances of Hortor bootlegging merchandise and taking money from people, but the whole scene was ready to burn Temple of Perdition at the stake... For what my opinion is worth, I still enjoy listening to Temple of Perdition’s music, but I have never even willfully listened to Hortor.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 6, 2019 11:58:51 GMT -6
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I don't think the problem was ever his beliefs or lyrics, in and of themselves. The problem was that he was (allegedly) being dishonest about them. I think another variable is changing direction in the lyrics, but keeping the project the same. I never had any angry Christians after me because of Ankou Awaits... Anyone who asked me, understood, that I'm a Christian, but the lyrics are FICTION and based on Welsh Mythology. It wasn't an problem for anyone because it wasn't something else before. My Christian music before and after, is under a different project name. What do you think would happen if for this 7th Orationem album, I went BACK to lyrics about Welsh Mythology for it? Duane would have a pile of "nope" for me. People would ponder what has changed in my faith, and probably be upset about it. Perhaps they would even try to de-legitimize the prior releases as really being "Christian"...
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Feb 21, 2020 0:11:34 GMT -6
The band has now been re-named as “Azerate,” which may be a reference to anti-cosmic luceferianism akin to what the MLO and frontman of Dissection follow/followed. The Yaakov claims to follow a “more evolved form in my understanding of the dragons of the other side,” so it may be more in line with Kabbalah or hermeticism than luciferianism.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 21, 2020 9:32:22 GMT -6
akin to what the MLO and frontman of Dissection follow/followed As I understood it a couple months ago, he was using imagery and themes from Current 218 but didn't really follow their theology?... Something like, he agrees with them on some things, but rejects the being they worship ("Satan"/"Lucifer" obviously). I don't know. Pretty much sounds like how Luciferians like to adopt themes from Christian church services in their music, etc. Yaakov has definitely said he doesn't believe in the existence of Satan as a literal "fallen angel" / "demonic being" as described in canonical Scripture, and that Satan [literal being] was "invented" by the church to spread fear. As I understand his views of "god"/"gods" are pretty pantheistic. Though a couple things to note: 1) the line "Seduced by anti-cosmic dreams" in the new song. 2) Ronny isn't credited with vocals in the new song. Perhaps the rumors were true and he quit?
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Post by julienbakerfan on Feb 21, 2020 15:02:20 GMT -6
You mean Current 93? Or something different? Current 93's beliefs are...weird, to say the least. According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia (/s), David Tibet (who basically is Current 93), calls himself a Christian. And he also is very influenced by the teachings of Aleister Crowley. Wait, what? Like most occultism/mysticism, I would say that Current 93's views are the usual soupy mix of vague and incompatible claims that is typical of such thought (I am a philosophy student, so I'm not very impressed by this). Listening to the new song now. Lyrics are definitely anti-cosmic/luciferian. If Wikipedia is correct, Azerate is definitely a reference to Luciferianism, specifically the Misanthropic Luciferian Order: "The MLO released Liber Azerate, a modern grimoire written by the order's Magister Templi Frater Nemidial, in 2002.[1] It was released on the internet in Swedish and Norwegian. Azerate is the hidden name of the "eleven anti-cosmic gods" described in the book." Pretty clear reference to this in the line "The snakes coil is 11 fold." Thaumiel is definitely from the Kabbalah, although I haven't inquired too closely (Jewish mystics say that one shouldn't study the Kabbalah until one is 30 years old; I want to have something to look forward to.). As a quick side note, I will point out that, as far as I know, Kabbalism is not necessarily luciferian, although there may be luciferian variations. I doubt most of the Jewish mystics had a vested interest in worshipping Satan. Back to the lyrics: they are clearly luciferian (=anti-Christian), especially with the repeated "ave father Azerate," and this: Cast down from the shadows I feed The thoughtful light wanes Seduced by anti-cosmic dreams Restriction is freed. Eradication of Thoughtful light Forever in your Name Unlike, say, lo-Ruhama's newest album, it doesn't seem to be presenting this stuff in the form of a story or a narrative, or in an ironic/undercutting way. Nor does it seem to be theatrical Satanism, like Rotting Christ or Behemoth (who use "Satanism" to attack Christianity) or $uicideboy$ (who use "Satanism" to represent the despair of depression, drug addiction, etc.) or Slayer/Venom (who use "Satanism" as a gimmick to get attention). As far as I can tell, this guy has gone back to his left-hand path roots, and is pretty much just promoting his own idiosyncratic version of luciferianism, just like he used ToP to promote his own (garbage) version of Christianity. The Current 93 thing makes me wonder if Ya'akov is going to go in a fascist/white power direction next. You can never tell with these kinds of lost souls. One week they're Christian, next they're gnostic, then luciferian, then hardcore straight edge, then something else.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Feb 21, 2020 15:02:55 GMT -6
Also, I can't see Ronny from Antestor (or anyone in a Christian band) being on board with this at all.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 21, 2020 20:16:32 GMT -6
julienbakerfan Never heard of Current 93. Current 218... Either it's related to the MLO, or it's another name for it, not totally sure.
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Feb 21, 2020 22:00:29 GMT -6
The constant changing of beliefs would not bother me if Yaakov did not vehemently deny that his lyrics ever had Christian themes.
From what I understand, he has many children. I hope they are able to have a healthy development.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Feb 23, 2020 20:43:34 GMT -6
Current 218... Either it's related to the MLO, or it's another name for it, not totally sure. Wikipedia confirms this.
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Feb 23, 2020 20:55:03 GMT -6
He has now changed the name to “Sitra Achra.” That is the name given to the realm of evil in Kabbalah.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Feb 23, 2020 20:56:39 GMT -6
He has now changed the name to “Sitra Achra.” That is the name given to the realm of evil in Kabbalah. Satanism confirmed.
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Post by Borndead on Feb 24, 2020 0:44:14 GMT -6
Seeing his fb page these days, I can't shake the thought that the "lord of confusion" really has a hold on him and seeing some of his answers to peoples comments he seems to take big pride in his confusion or should I say chaos. He even used the "chaos sigil"(i think it's called that) in his new logo. He needs our prayers for sure.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 24, 2020 9:44:26 GMT -6
The band has now been re-named as “Azerate,” He has now changed the name to “Sitra Achra.” When someone doesn't know what to do, and no longer likes what they did, there's only one thing left to do. Flail.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Feb 24, 2020 20:30:48 GMT -6
The band has now been re-named as “Azerate,” He has now changed the name to “Sitra Achra.” When someone doesn't know what to do, and no longer likes what they did, there's only one thing left to do. Flail. The band has now been renamed Batushka.
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Post by Borndead on Feb 25, 2020 11:25:27 GMT -6
The band has now been renamed Batushka. Hahaha dude, you made me laugh out loud.
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Post by visionofGodrecords on Mar 9, 2020 7:16:46 GMT -6
sadly temple has been dropped from our label... we dropped them for going kabbalah & they are now Satanists. we have to uphold biblical standards in Christianity. be blessed friends
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Post by visionofGodrecords on Mar 9, 2020 7:19:23 GMT -6
we dropped them brother... she corrected the thread... and im being called a bigot.. we are a Christian ministry and don't mess around with unbiblical stuff
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Post by visionofGodrecords on Mar 9, 2020 7:24:08 GMT -6
he for sure was a Christian... here is his baptism video go to 10 minutes in for the conversation before the baptism... go to 16 min to see baptisms. note his logo---a heart and a cross. we trusted who he claimed he was...1.5 years later he has changed.
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