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Post by Madelyn on Apr 9, 2020 15:34:18 GMT -6
Forgiveness for the sake of forgiveness is bad.
Forgiveness because it's 'the right thing to do' is wrong, and harmful to both the person forgiving and the person being forgiven.
Our ultimate role model is God, and if there is one thing we know about God and forgiveness, it's that He either cannot or will not forgive someone unless they ask for it, repenting of their sins in earnest. It makes no sense that we should go out of our way to forgive someone when they have not asked for it, if God will not do the same. In fact, forgiving someone who has not repented is harmful because it tells them that their actions are acceptable and encourages them to continue. I have seen no evidence that we, as Christians, are called to forgive indiscriminately. If you have any examples or passages, I would love to take a look and closely analyze them, but this is what I have seen in the verses I've looked at.
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Post by avjr on Apr 9, 2020 15:41:06 GMT -6
Forgiveness for the sake of forgiveness is bad. Forgiveness because it's 'the right thing to do' is wrong, and harmful to both the person forgiving and the person being forgiven. Our ultimate role model is God, and if there is one thing we know about God and forgiveness, it's that He either cannot or will not forgive someone unless they ask for it, repenting of their sins in earnest. It makes no sense that we should go out of our way to forgive someone when they have not asked for it, if God will not do the same. In fact, forgiving someone who has not repented is harmful because it tells them that their actions are acceptable and encourages them to continue. I have seen no evidence that we, as Christians, are called to forgive indiscriminately. If you have any examples or passages, I would love to take a look and closely analyze them, but this is what I have seen in the verses I've looked at. what verses?
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Post by lefo on Apr 9, 2020 16:39:01 GMT -6
Forgiveness for the sake of forgiveness is bad. Forgiveness because it's 'the right thing to do' is wrong, and harmful to both the person forgiving and the person being forgiven. Our ultimate role model is God, and if there is one thing we know about God and forgiveness, it's that He either cannot or will not forgive someone unless they ask for it, repenting of their sins in earnest. It makes no sense that we should go out of our way to forgive someone when they have not asked for it, if God will not do the same. In fact, forgiving someone who has not repented is harmful because it tells them that their actions are acceptable and encourages them to continue. I have seen no evidence that we, as Christians, are called to forgive indiscriminately. If you have any examples or passages, I would love to take a look and closely analyze them, but this is what I have seen in the verses I've looked at. Well, not only should forgive everyone even if they don't repent, you pretty much have to. You are right that God will not forgive sins we care not to repent. That's called free will. In the prayer The Lord's Prayer we pray "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." If you don't forgive, don't expect God to forgive you. It's hard sometimes to forgive some heavy stuff, feels almost impossible, but please remember that you only need to forgive in your head and pray that God would help you forgive in your heath later. Usually, we are unable to forgive in our heart. When Peter asked Jesus if we should forgive seven times, He replied...77 times. That means....always forgive. Love your enemies.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Apr 9, 2020 20:32:08 GMT -6
Forgiveness does not imply that people should not face the consequences of their actions.
The thief on the cross was not magically removed from his cross when he asked Christ to remember him in paradise.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Apr 9, 2020 21:20:53 GMT -6
The main question here is whether verses about "forgiveness" only apply when the person is truly sorry, or if they also apply to people who aren't sorry.
I don't know for sure.
I will say, there is a possibility that not forgiving someone, can have negative consequences. Aside from the obvious emotional baggage that comes from holding a grudge, consider this, as an extreme example: Let's say someone hurts you, very badly. I don't even know what they did, but it was the worst thing they could possibly do. You lose touch with them. A decade later, you move to a new town or whatever, and you see that person walking down the street. Now, God knows when you repent because God has the power to always hear you when you call out, but obviously you can't always hear or see the person who hurt you. In the time since they hurt you, they repented, both in terms of faith, and in terms of morals, but just haven't had a chance to apologize to you. Before they can say anything, you kill them out of rage. The blood of an "innocent" person is on your hands now. Again, this is an extreme example, but a valid one nonetheless.
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Post by Madelyn on Apr 10, 2020 13:54:05 GMT -6
The thief on the cross was not magically removed from his cross when he asked Christ to remember him in paradise. No, he wasn't. But he did ask for forgiveness. Jesus did not forgive both the thieves, only the one who asked. Like God, we should be ready and willing to forgive, always, but I don't see that this means we should forgive someone who is still acting against us. I see a lot of people who forgive almost like a passtime, they forgive someone so that they feel good inside because it's 'the right thing to do'. I don't think it is, not in itself. We are called to forgive, but for the good of the person we're forgiving. Be willing to forgive them, and yes, let them know you're willing to forgive them. But it makes no difference if they do not want it. Just the first two verses that come up when you search for verses about forgiveness, Colossians 3:13 and Matthew 6:12, both say to forgive the same way God does. Which is not forgiving anyone and everyone regardless of whether or not they asked for forgiveness.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Apr 11, 2020 9:59:25 GMT -6
Like God, we should be ready and willing to forgive, always, but I don't see that this means we should forgive someone who is still acting against us. I see a lot of people who forgive almost like a passtime, they forgive someone so that they feel good inside because it's 'the right thing to do'. For the most part, I agree with you. Forgive when asked. ...and I do not think forgiveness should be something thrown around willy-nilly. (I'm no judge, but I sometimes wonder if people do this for some sort of self-righteous reasons) ...but I can think of one exception, and nocturnaliridescence touched on this. There are times where forgiveness is actually more for the forgiver, than it is for the forgiven. I can't think of a better way of destroying a grudge, resentment or bitterness toward someone who isn't sorry, than to forgive them in your heart. I would never make it a public presentation to forgive someone who's not sorry. Hell, I wouldn't even tell that person in that situation, that I forgive them. I would just forgive them silently, between God and myself, if I find that I'm being consumed by anger over it. Quite a different approach compared to someone who asks me for forgiveness, and I will forgive them openly.
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Post by avjr on Apr 11, 2020 13:57:27 GMT -6
Like God, we should be ready and willing to forgive, always, but I don't see that this means we should forgive someone who is still acting against us. I see a lot of people who forgive almost like a passtime, they forgive someone so that they feel good inside because it's 'the right thing to do'. For the most part, I agree with you. Forgive when asked. ...and I do not think forgiveness should be something thrown around willy-nilly. (I'm no judge, but I sometimes wonder if people do this for some sort of self-righteous reasons) Or perhaps, naive. Iām like this.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Apr 12, 2020 10:06:46 GMT -6
Or perhaps, naive. Iām like this. I certainly wasn't thinking of you bro when I mentioned forgiving willy-nilly. I know you're a compassionate person with a big heart. What really came to my mind was seeing live courtroom feed of a murder sentencing where the family speaks. Sure, some people spew a lot of hate, but some people ham up the "I forgive you" for the cameras. (at least, that's what it looks like to me - not really trying to judge here) I really don't think this is the kind of thing that's truly black and white. I mean, I don't think you should have to ask for forgiveness because you forgave someone who didn't ask for it. HAHAHAHA!!! I could see how telling someone they're forgiven when they're not sorry, could make them reflect on themselves, and perhaps have a change of heart. I could also see how saying "I forgive you" to someone who's not sorry, as something not sincere and more for "conversation leverage". Kinda like how some people will say "I'll pray for you", but it just seems like that was opportunistic to change a topic. Again, I try not to judge. I don't like to think people say "I forgive you" or "I'll pray for you" for other reasons besides following through with that. But I fear it does/could happen.
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Post by avjr on Apr 12, 2020 12:19:07 GMT -6
No worries. š
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Post by Madelyn on Apr 13, 2020 13:12:43 GMT -6
There are times where forgiveness is actually more for the forgiver, than it is for the forgiven. I can't think of a better way of destroying a grudge, resentment or bitterness toward someone who isn't sorry, than to forgive them in your heart. So, something I would want to make clear is that I'm talking about forgiveness in the way that most people seem to think of it. From talking to a lot of people who, Christian or not, admit not being very learned in the Bible, I've found that a lot of people seem to not really understand the difference between forgiving someone by telling them you forgive them, and forgiving them in your heart. God does want us to 'forgive them in our heart'. What that means, in practice, is being ready and willing at all times to forgive everything. The forgiveness that I'm saying we should not be doing without being asked is telling the person that we forgive them.This addresses the scenario of enacting revenge on someone you haven't seen in ten years. That's kind of a garbage extreme example, and if it's what comes to your mind first then you may have to look into yourself as to why holding a grudge that long seems reasonable to you. We, all, as Christians need to do our best to be forgiving. That is an adjective, it needs to be a state of being. Not a verb, which is an action. Responding with punishment is far from ours, unless you are actually a professional executioner or jailer. Using an extreme example is unhelpful, as you're going to invariably fun afoul of the Bible long before we get to the point you're trying to make. The Bible tells us that holding a grudge is bad for us, and that punishments are not to be given except by someone in authority, like a parent, a ruler, that giving into rage is sinful. This example of murdering someone who you haven't seen in ten years is useless because it's immediately full of other acts that the Bible tells us much more certainly are wrong. My reason for making this post, and in part for not fully explaining everything I meant by it, is in a way to try and draw out what other people think about the subject of forgiveness and see if a) I'm really missing something, and b) confront people with what may be uncomfortable for them, for you, to acknowledge that, like many Christians in this day and age, we have bent our faith to be in line with the ways of the world for so long most of us don't even realize it anymore. Is it so hard to believe that the concept of outright forgiving someone without them ever repenting might stem from a secular society telling Christians that some sins aren't so bad and shouldn't be treated as such?
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Apr 13, 2020 18:27:25 GMT -6
This addresses the scenario of enacting revenge on someone you haven't seen in ten years. That's kind of a garbage extreme example, and if it's what comes to your mind first then you may have to look into yourself as to why holding a grudge that long seems reasonable to you. [...] Using an extreme example is unhelpful, as you're going to invariably fun afoul of the Bible long before we get to the point you're trying to make. The Bible tells us that holding a grudge is bad for us, and that punishments are not to be given except by someone in authority, like a parent, a ruler, that giving into rage is sinful. This example of murdering someone who you haven't seen in ten years is useless because it's immediately full of other acts that the Bible tells us much more certainly are wrong. Or you could like, focus on the point I was trying to make instead of focusing on the quality of the example? I'm not in this thread to write a story, I'm in this thread to talk about principles and morals.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Apr 14, 2020 11:10:00 GMT -6
God does want us to 'forgive them in our heart'. What that means, in practice, is being ready and willing at all times to forgive everything. The forgiveness that I'm saying we should not be doing without being asked is telling the person that we forgive them.Forgiving someone in your heart isn't the same as just being ready/willing to forgive... but I agree with you that there's a time and a place to tell someone they're forgiven. As I already mentioned in this thread, when they ask to be forgive, yes. When they don't ask for it, no.
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Post by Deepfriar on May 16, 2020 0:03:08 GMT -6
The thief on the cross was not magically removed from his cross when he asked Christ to remember him in paradise. Jesus did not forgive both the thieves, only the one who asked. Sorry to jump into the middle of a conversation, but I just wanted to point out that the thief on the cross did not ask for forgiveness... he simply asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom... which was indicative of belief in Christ... belief/faith in Christ is the only condition of total once-for-all forgiveness and salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 10:14-18). God does not withhold forgiveness for sinful acts until we specifically ask for it... we are forgiven past, present, and future the moment we believe. I don't think trying to model our practice of forgiveness after God's forgiveness is a good idea because the two are completely unrelated as we do not have a covenant with everyone who wrongs us and it adds undue pressure upon our mortal consciences... just my 2 cents. I will also say that harboring bitterness and unforgiveness toward others in our hearts is a burden on the soul that is unhealthy to bear. I do believe we should forgive people even when they don't want it or ask for it, but it is something we do in the inner man and it certainly does not need to be verbalized to the offending party unless we feel led to try to reconcile. Furthermore, forgiveness is a choice and not a feeling. You can choose to forgive someone even when you don't 'feel' like it... your feelings can catch up later.
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Post by avjr on May 22, 2020 16:43:17 GMT -6
God speaks to me in His perfect timing.
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