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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 12, 2015 14:18:29 GMT -6
I didn't know where else to put this, but since we have a "trusted stores" thread here, I figured this would be its home. Not trying to rock the boat here as some store owners post here, but just voicing my views on how many stores work with artists (my own experience as one) doesn't feel very "trusted" when I get the short end of the stick with a "consignment or bust" offer.
Sorry folks, this has bothered me for a while and now I'm saying something. For those of you who don't know what consignment is, its when a store agrees to carry the album, but doesn't pay the artist until people have already bought the store's copies given to them.
Here's the two major problems I've had with consignment:
- If the CD doesn't sell, the store keeps it. - Stores don't payout for individual CD sales.
One of the stores on the trusted list agreed to carry the new Ankou Awaits, on consignment only. When I said I'll agree to that if they send the unsold copies back after X amount of time, they disagreed. I was extremely offended that they would just keep what I sent to them if the copies didn't sell. ...and that I was willing to pay for shipping out of pocket to send them something they could make money off of, but they wouldn't be willing to give back to me what they couldn't sell.
Another store on the trusted list, agreed to pay out after 5 CDs sold. (this was Hguols era - so its been a few years) So what happened? 4 CDs sold, they have their money for the 4 copies. They have 1 CD left just sitting on their shelf. Its literally been years and I have gotten $0 from the albums they sold, because "all" of them didn't sell. Definitely a delayed reaction to get pissed about it now, but... I'm pissed.
Because of this, I'm reluctant to buy from anyone except the artist (or artist's store) directly, even if they actually do send merch out (trusted), because those artists get a shitty deal to "sell" from that store. I'm saying that because THAT'S WHAT I GOT!
I would be perfectly fine with consignment if stores paid artists for EVERY album sold. (ie: I send you 10 for $30, you sold one, you send me $3 immediately) ...and if there was an agreement established to send back what they couldn't sell. (or the store just bought them themselves after a while - that's what Cross Rhythms Music / Blast Beats did for me with GRIM back in the day. Net30. They'd pay me for the CDs in 30 days whether they sold or not.)
Do you think any retail/grocery/electronics/etc. outlet say to a vendor, "I'll take 100 of X, but I'll only pay you if they sell." No. They'd have bare shelves if they said that. Its only the music industry that takes advantage of artists trying to make a name for themselves and lining their own pockets and shitting on people trying to make a name with their art.
Christian stores should NOT do that.
This doesn't mean 100% of the risk should be on stores, but it shouldn't be 100% on the artist either.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 14:51:40 GMT -6
I agree that Christian stores should not do this unless they agree to send back the unsold copies and pay for each copy sold - not pay once 5 copies sell like the situation you described with Hguols.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 12, 2015 16:30:29 GMT -6
I should have done this ages ago.
I contacted the two stores (listed as trusted here I might add) that still have Hguols CDs (going on 4 years that they still haven't paid for) requesting for them to either purchase the discs they've had this whole time or send back to me what they haven't sold.
Sorry guys, if they're difficult or unresponsive, (I'll give them a week) ...I'm pulling their names from the "trusted stores" thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 16:39:22 GMT -6
Sorry guys, if they're difficult or unresponsive, (I'll give them a week) ...I'm pulling their names from the "trusted stores" thread. I would do the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2015 6:01:07 GMT -6
...that's why I'm a huuuuuge fan of keeping things simple. I release my 'own' stuff AFTER the artist received his copies and distro titles come from trades or wholesale (not that often, because it simply doesn't make sense most of the time for a small label).
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 13, 2015 9:48:03 GMT -6
Agreed Kai. I like that its never been about money when we've worked together... not that a currency exchange is necessarily a bad thing. I think it makes sense to carry other releases from bands you've had/have under your wing. ...but you're right, just carrying "Christian (extreme) metal" as a whole like an un-affiliated online store, when you're a specific record label, does seem a little out of place. Nothing alarming though.
Not to provide clues to my less than pleasant experience with online music stores, but this consignment complaint has always applied exclusively to non-record label stores. Every time I've worked with "_________ Records", the agreement to make X number of copies and I get Y amount to sell myself. Or there's a trade. Either way, its not one sided.
In my opinion, the consignment idea doesn't sound so bad for more accepted genres of music. In a world where a touring Christian rock artist can sell 5 or more CDs a week for several months, that's a completely acceptable deal considering the turnaround. In terms of worldwide demand, "Christian metal" is very low, and the extreme metal sub genres are even lower than that. I'd fall over if there were more than 10,000 people in existance with one iota of interest in Christian black metal.
It really seems to me that some Christian metal stores exploit artists trying to get their name known. I've been there before - where I didn't care what kind of money I made out of the deal, I just wanted another website to have my music for sale. Of course, those feelings about that change when months/years pass and I have no idea how many they've sold or traded and I've gotten absolutely NOTHING back.
....it ends up feeling like "consignment" gets treated like a disguised gifting.
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Post by blake on Jun 16, 2015 7:12:02 GMT -6
Due to the nature of my store I havent made any consignment deals since my store for the most part is just a liquidation of my personal collection. I probably wouldnt agree to that deal either. Although last year when I released my Christmas compilation I was never offered consignment but instead I had a couple distros buy some in bulk at discounted rates so they could at least make a profit off of them.
One store allowed me to trade 1 to 1 for any cd in their stock, so although I didnt get paid money, I did get a ton of new music to listen to. That was pretty nice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 13:05:03 GMT -6
I only send QFS CD's to a store when they pay upfront after I send a Paypal invoice. I charge them a wholesale price so they can add they're mark-up but I also make something too. This way the CD's are theirs from the start and they can do what they like with them - keep them, sell them, etc.
Hope you get you're CD's back Thomas or get paid for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 15:02:19 GMT -6
Yep that is what I do too. I only tried consignment ONE TIME and I got burned by a MAJOR distro. I had to really create havoc and send emails saying how unchristlike it was to finally get paid.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 17, 2015 3:44:44 GMT -6
I'm curious as to what distro Larry... but I understand not mentioning it.
Everyone, at this time, its necessary for me to inform you that I've removed Soundmass and Nordic Mission from our list of "trusted stores". We could probably go into further discussion in regards to levels of "trusted", but in my opinion, if there's any doubt on ANY level of trust, it contradicts it.
The good news is, Soundmass is paying me for the CDs they've sold - which was actually 5 copies between the 3 different Hguols albums. The bad news is - I'm convinced he would have just kept (or "forgot about") the money unless I came looking for it. I shouldn't have to prompt him for compensation since he had the inventory to sell and he sold it.
Also bad news, since he's not interested in purchasing the remaining albums himself, he expects me to pay to have the CDs sent back to me. (and referencing terms listed on a completely different site (I dealt with / shipped my CDs to [AUSTRALIA] Soundmass.com, the terms were listed on [UK] downloads.soundmass.com)
Whatever. I told him I was cutting my losses and he can keep them. Does this sound trusted to any of you guys? Doesn't to me.
Nordic Mission is less complicated, but in my opinion, a worse scenario because I haven't heard back.
Larry, looks like I'll be creating some havoc of my own with them. Something tells me that BBB and IC3 will have to be explained to them, but I'll so go there.
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Post by Ghoul on Jun 17, 2015 5:12:33 GMT -6
Sorry to hear you have had problems With NordicMission. I have worked With them many times. Never had any problems. In fact, in my experience Nordic Mission is one of the best store around. The only thing I have to complain about is that they can be a little slow to send purchased orders. But I know are often around on festivals etc..
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Post by blake on Jun 17, 2015 6:59:34 GMT -6
I'm curious as to what distro Larry... but I understand not mentioning it. Everyone, at this time, its necessary for me to inform you that I've removed Soundmass and Nordic Mission from our list of "trusted stores". We could probably go into further discussion in regards to levels of "trusted", but in my opinion, if there's any doubt on ANY level of trust, it contradicts it. The good news is, Soundmass is paying me for the CDs they've sold - which was actually 5 copies between the 3 different Hguols albums. The bad news is - I'm convinced he would have just kept (or "forgot about") the money unless I came looking for it. I shouldn't have to prompt him for compensation since he had the inventory to sell and he sold it. Also bad news, since he's not interested in purchasing the remaining albums himself, he expects me to pay to have the CDs sent back to me. (and referencing terms listed on a completely different site (I dealt with / shipped my CDs to [AUSTRALIA] Soundmass.com, the terms were listed on [UK] downloads.soundmass.com) Whatever. I told him I was cutting my losses and he can keep them. Does this sound trusted to any of you guys? Doesn't to me. Nordic Mission is less complicated, but in my opinion, a worse scenario because I haven't heard back. Larry, looks like I'll be creating some havoc of my own with them. Something tells me that BBB and IC3 will have to be explained to them, but I'll so go there. Hmm, soundmass are the ones I worked with and got the trade deal. Out of all the distros I worked with soundmass worked out best for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 8:27:33 GMT -6
Same here, Nordic Mission and Soundmass have been great to deal with.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 14:56:31 GMT -6
I'm curious as to what distro Larry... but I understand not mentioning it. Everyone, at this time, its necessary for me to inform you that I've removed Soundmass and Nordic Mission from our list of "trusted stores". We could probably go into further discussion in regards to levels of "trusted", but in my opinion, if there's any doubt on ANY level of trust, it contradicts it. The good news is, Soundmass is paying me for the CDs they've sold - which was actually 5 copies between the 3 different Hguols albums. The bad news is - I'm convinced he would have just kept (or "forgot about") the money unless I came looking for it. I shouldn't have to prompt him for compensation since he had the inventory to sell and he sold it. Also bad news, since he's not interested in purchasing the remaining albums himself, he expects me to pay to have the CDs sent back to me. (and referencing terms listed on a completely different site (I dealt with / shipped my CDs to [AUSTRALIA] Soundmass.com, the terms were listed on [UK] downloads.soundmass.com) Whatever. I told him I was cutting my losses and he can keep them. Does this sound trusted to any of you guys? Doesn't to me. Nordic Mission is less complicated, but in my opinion, a worse scenario because I haven't heard back. Larry, looks like I'll be creating some havoc of my own with them. Something tells me that BBB and IC3 will have to be explained to them, but I'll so go there. Tom with me it was Girder's. I have never had an issue with Nordic Mission NOR Soundmass but then again I only trade or get paid upfront before sending now. Once getting burned on consignment was enough for me.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 17, 2015 15:38:41 GMT -6
I was never offered a trade deal, but keep in mind this was 4 years ago + with the Hguols albums.
I'm really getting annoyed with Soundmass because he told me in an e-mail he's sold 5 CDs and owes me $30... BUT HE'S NOT PAYING IT because he wants to "quibble" (his word) about keeping the CDs in his store and continuing to do what we've been doing.
(which probably involves another 4 years going by and him keeping the money from all my releases)
I've told him twice now that I just want to close the Hguols transaction. Not cool guys. I'm about to get belligerent with him if I have to tell him a 3rd time. So far I've been nice and that's telling him to give me the money he owes me and throw the other CDs away. (He offered to dismantle the CDs and send the pieces to me for the outstanding price of $6. Um, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 12:43:12 GMT -6
Tom, that's why I always buy directly from you (or Kai). Although I did buy the Hguols from Shaver AV. I bough directly from Martin on the Quest albums as well.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 20, 2015 16:06:16 GMT -6
Well, Shaver AV actually BOUGHT the Hguols CDs up front, so I can say he's definitely more solid than the other two stores I mentioned. I spoke to him briefly via e-mail, invited him here. Sounds like he's still working on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 17:10:45 GMT -6
Shaver AV is an awesome store indeed. Really fast, cheap shipping.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 27, 2015 14:30:07 GMT -6
Its been over 3 weeks and I still haven't heard back from Nordic Mission despite multiple e-mails to them. Its apparent to me that they have no intention of contacting me back to resolve this / aka they're just going to keep the my merchandise as a gift.
The Better Business Bureau doesn't deal with international complaints of this sort, but I filed a complaint with econsumer.gov, who DOES address complaints of this nature. I also filed a complaint with IC3 (Internet Crime Complaint Center) regarding this as well.
From the way it sounds after following through with IC3, the next step is local law enforcement will be in contact with me regarding this theft to request appropriate documentation of this transaction... which I have.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 5:04:19 GMT -6
I honestly think that Pål didn't manage to answer yet (for whatever reasons) and that there aren't any bad intentions, so to speak.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 28, 2015 6:15:45 GMT -6
Its hard to say what Paal's intentions are. Its been over 3 weeks and I still haven't heard anything. Its hard not to take that as a "no" when it takes 1 minute to send an e-mail.
I'd like to think he wasn't deliberately trying to steal my merchandise. I've corresponded with the guy before. I met him in person in 99. A lot can change in 16 years and my goal isn't to get the guy in trouble. I just need to do something, to get results besides just sending e-mails into the Nordic Mission abyss.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 14:26:39 GMT -6
Paal is VERY SLOW at returning emails. I know this from Experience. I have never had trouble from him but I do know it is frustrating cause he IS so slow at returning emails.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 8:45:50 GMT -6
Just reading through this thread for the first time, i like others have said, have never had a problem with soundmass or NM. I have never worked with them as a band, but our trades are always worked out according to our agreement. I trust both of these stores and the guys behind them. Paal in some regards, is a legend and someone i personally look up to because of his involvement in the scene for more years than most. Just my 2 cents...
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Post by kimmo on Aug 1, 2015 5:45:47 GMT -6
Sucks to hear all this, Thomas! In general I have noticed that some people have A REALLY hard time answering their e-mails nowadays. Maybe everyone uses Facebook and they take for granted that all the people take contact there. I am not talking about ordering stuff or making deals, but cases where I have tried to contact bands to get their lyrics or stuff like that. It is really frustrating and happens too often. Sure, bands can be busy, but then again these bands in question are not like on the top of the pop music charts or anything In my opinion, if a person starts a business, they should consider if they are up to it and then when they run into time trouble or other difficulties and they cant find extra hands, THEY SHOULD INFORM THEIR CUSTOMERS of the situation. I mean, how hard it is to put an auto-response on your e-mail?
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Post by Ghoul on Aug 16, 2015 5:19:27 GMT -6
any news regarding the Nordic Mission issues?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 16, 2015 6:47:25 GMT -6
Sorry. I said something in different threads/forums, just not here.
I FINALLY heard from Pal. The initial e-mail REALLY rubbed me the wrong way because he initially asked "Why didn't you just e-mail me?" (uh, its not posted anywhere?) and he KNEW the contact form on his site didn't work. (but he still left it up?)
The second e-mail from him clarified a few more things. I certainly feel better about it, and he didn't blame me for "warning other people" about what happened. He apologized for it.
- The contact form on their site works on the Norwegian site, but not he English one. - He didn't realize that he didn't have his "frisurf" e-mail posted anywhere (at least posted on the English site) - He doesn't make changes to his website himself, and has been having problems with "the company" that does their web stuff
Those points really made sense of everything. He did say something that I disagree with. He doesn't think that he can compete with the US's efficiency of contact. He didn't say he doesn't try, but it makes me wonder.
I'd like to think that I was a reasonable person and I'm slow to anger. ...but I'll admit, I was pretty heated until I got some answers. Ultimately, it was never about $30 or 5 CDs, the negligent experience upset me more than anything.
He just bought the CDs outright by the way. That was very cool of him.
I would LOVE to add him to the trusted sites we have here... but I can't in good conscience knowing that he knows the US contact form needs fixed, and it's still featured on his site.
He fixes that, I'll add him.
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Post by kimmo on Aug 16, 2015 7:04:41 GMT -6
Great to hear that things are somewhat cleared with youguys, Thomas! However, I did not understand what he meant with this: "He doesn't think that he can compete with the US's efficiency of contact." Is he saying that he cannot answer e-mails as fast as people from the US? Or what? If so, that sounds like a really weird comment
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Post by Ghoul on Aug 16, 2015 8:38:45 GMT -6
That's great to hear. Glad you guys has worked things out. That's good
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Post by blake on Aug 17, 2015 7:20:21 GMT -6
If his hes having trouble with the guy who manages his website then I can completely understand him having a broken contact form. Because when you rely on a 3rd party to makes changes to your site your kinda at their mercy when you need a change, and its not out of the ordinary for some of them to sit on things. Lucky for me I built my site myself so I dont have that problem.
The comment about the US efficiency of contact, im not sure, but maybe he just means that America has higher standard/expectations on contact turnaround time? I dont know but thats just a guess on what he means.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 17, 2015 16:17:18 GMT -6
I looked up again his remark. I think it might be a misplaced "us", not "U.S." like I initially though. I'm probably wrong about what he said about the US, but I'll copy what he said verbatim so you can interpret it like I have:
"Also no point of discussing time frames, we certainly not compete us with the business world at all. (Summertime we travel around 4 weeks on different festivals) and on the other hand, we are very much used to not receiving daily but more like weekly email replies from customers and bands. Why the hurry?" ________________________________
Regarding the broken site, I've been in that boat ONE time. ...and when I had issues with someone making an adjustment, I jumped ship to a scenario where I had complete control. While I don't hold him responsible for fixing the site himself, he is responsible to ensure that it is fixed.
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