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Post by drawnsword on Sept 19, 2016 18:38:02 GMT -6
Christians are rejecting organized church Millions of today's Christians are leaving the organized church without abandoning their faith. Why? Former pastor, turned animated video blogger, Richard Jacobson, is releasing a new book which insists organized churches are unscriptural. The book, Unchurching: Christianity Without Churchianity, is intended to thoroughly deconstruct the institutional church and re-think whether such a church model is even biblical. Unchurching takes many long-standing church traditions head-on, challenging special church buildings, paid pastors, weekly sermons, mandatory tithes and offerings, gender inequality in church leadership and more. The author hopes Unchurching will give Christians a vision for genuine spiritual community outside the church box and equip them to articulate that vision to others. To learn more about Unchurching: Christianity Without Churchianity and download free sample chapters of the book, visit unchurching.com/book
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 19:38:23 GMT -6
Whoa. Well, I know what to put in my YouTube queue. Thanks for posting these!
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Post by drawnsword on Sept 19, 2016 20:30:42 GMT -6
Cool, here are some of his animations about it...
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 21:18:33 GMT -6
The first animation I watched I liked. The one about the hierarchy, they said there were no examples of "organizational rank" in the early church.
...then what we're the pharisees?
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Post by drawnsword on Sept 20, 2016 3:56:30 GMT -6
The Pharisees were one of two main religious parties in first -century Israel. The Pharisees embraced all the old testament and believed in spirits, angels, the soul, and the resurrection. They were the sectarian purists, obsessed with strict legalism, especially in respect to Jewish dietary laws and ceremonial cleanliness. Of the 500,000 or so Jewish residents in Palestine, over 6,000 were Pharisees. They were made up mostly of artisans and merchants from the middle and lower urban classes.
Jesus was quite clear when he pulled his Disciples aside, many of whom would go on to become the Apostles who would shape the New Testament Church, when he said to them; "The Pharisees do all their deeds to be seen by others... But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers." Matt.23:5 What did Jesus mean by this? Did He seriously intend to communicate that He was the only head of His Church? Could He really mean that they were not to set up a hierarchical system of Church government?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 20, 2016 11:21:52 GMT -6
Weren't the Pharisees an example of hierarchy in the ancient church though? If so, then that video is wrong to say there's NO examples of hierarchy in the ancient church.
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 20, 2016 12:29:09 GMT -6
Haven't watched the videos and it's a busy day at work so I won't be able to respond in full right now... But I do have a few thoughts on the subject: 1. The book of Acts (which most of the socialistic/communistic ideologies for church structure stem from) is a historical account, NOT necessarily a how-to for church. 2. Paul's letters specifically explain roles of church leadership and therefore hierarchy (unless I'm missing the point here?) 3. For the same reason anarchy has never worked/lasted, a church-anarchy won't either [I'm not sure if that's what the author is claiming so sorry if this is off-point]. People need organization, leadership, and structure - even within church (just as God specified to Moses...). 4. I have seen this many times before (and have been guilty of this myself) - where people stop going to church and therefore cease being a part of a close/intimate Christian community, no longer partake in communal worship, lack accountability, do not have wise and sound doctrine taught to them, etc... - they/we begin to make up our own doctrine, justify sin, and oftentimes leave the faith entirely. We were made to "do church" in community and I believe it is absolutely crucial to our spiritual well-being. Unless God speaks to you directly by loud thundering voice in breaks of clouds... you should be seeking His guidance through reading His Word and actively being a part of a Christian community with good teaching. Otherwise we are severely risking our feeble human ways getting the better of us. 5. In a culture of self-focus, self-expression, and overall selfishness, it seems people are just looking for excuses to not go to church because it isn't just perfect and therefore lose out on the massive amounts of goodness that church has to offer (both in what it gives and the opportunities therein for the members to give back). No matter what, every church will be ran by humans and all humans are fallible and capable of messing up. You want a perfect church? You'll have to wait to die and go to heaven... But in the meantime, there is much good to be had through churches here on Earth - even now.
All that being said, maybe the author is just saying there are some customs or traditions that aren't necessary for church and yet we all have them. That's cool. But unless they're straight-up heretical, don't let those be stumbling blocks for you to experience one of the primary ways I believe God has intended for His children to get to know and understand Him and His love better.
*gets off soap box...*
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Post by drawnsword on Sept 20, 2016 18:10:46 GMT -6
FOREWORD to Unchurching: Christianity Without Churchianity
In the past ten years, that which calls itself “church” has gone through monumental upheaval. Church buildings are closing left and right, churches are going bankrupt at an alarming rate, and, as usual, churches are splitting every moment. But the really noticeable trend in this current disruption is the huge number of people who have been — for a number of reasons — leaving the institutional churches. The religious buzz is about the “dones” and the “gones.” Traditionally in America there was among many citizens the deeply rooted practice of “going to church.” But those days are over. Getting up on Sunday morning and packing the family into a car to go to a building no longer has the pull it once had.
Many nervous church leaders with obvious vested interests will respond to the exodus from their buildings by saying that people are losing interest in God. But the truth is, as Clyde Reid pointed out in 1966, “To reject the institutional churches is not the same as rejecting God or rejecting the Christian faith… Some people may have to reject the churches to find Christ and vitality… And God is surely present outside the churches — often more present without than within.”
When people exit churches, some find alternatives, but many still haven’t found what they’re looking for. Richard Jacobson’s Unchurching will go a long way to helping believers realize that community around Christ is the unchartered longing in so many hearts. Most religious structures do not encourage and foster relationships. M. Scott Peck noted in 1987 that “the plain reality is that by and large the Church has not been in the community game; it has been in the numbers game.”
Those who have come to feel uneasy about what goes on in the mainline churches, and those who have actually left, are faced with many valid questions and concerns. Unchurching seeks to help readers wrestle with a host of assumptions concerning “church,” in order that the core of what following Christ in community really is will become more evident.
Sad to say, the journey out of institutional churches usually involves scrapping the layers of human traditions we’ve absorbed, and starting over with Christ from scratch. Frederick Buechner observed that what goes on in AA groups, “Is far closer to what Christ meant his church to be, and what it originally was, than much of what goes on in most churches I know… They make you wonder if the best thing that could happen to many a church might not be to have its building burn down and to lose all its money. Then all that the people would have left would be God and each other.”
Unchurching will help you capture a vision for a fresh start that is built upon the Lord Jesus Christ, the only foundation the Father has put His seal upon.
—Jon Zens Author of A Church Building Every ½ Mile: What Makes American Christianity Tick? (Foreword by Frank Viola)
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 22, 2016 14:15:01 GMT -6
Spot on with that comment for AA groups. My homegroup meeting is tonight and I love how the 1 hour meeting turns into an almost 2 hour talk about God.
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Post by Varg on Sept 23, 2016 13:08:53 GMT -6
Haven't watched the videos and it's a busy day at work so I won't be able to respond in full right now... But I do have a few thoughts on the subject: 1. The book of Acts (which most of the socialistic/communistic ideologies for church structure stem from) is a historical account, NOT necessarily a how-to for church. 2. Paul's letters specifically explain roles of church leadership and therefore hierarchy (unless I'm missing the point here?) 3. For the same reason anarchy has never worked/lasted, a church-anarchy won't either [I'm not sure if that's what the author is claiming so sorry if this is off-point]. People need organization, leadership, and structure - even within church (just as God specified to Moses...). 4. I have seen this many times before (and have been guilty of this myself) - where people stop going to church and therefore cease being a part of a close/intimate Christian community, no longer partake in communal worship, lack accountability, do not have wise and sound doctrine taught to them, etc... - they/we begin to make up our own doctrine, justify sin, and oftentimes leave the faith entirely. We were made to "do church" in community and I believe it is absolutely crucial to our spiritual well-being. Unless God speaks to you directly by loud thundering voice in breaks of clouds... you should be seeking His guidance through reading His Word and actively being a part of a Christian community with good teaching. Otherwise we are severely risking our feeble human ways getting the better of us. 5. In a culture of self-focus, self-expression, and overall selfishness, it seems people are just looking for excuses to not go to church because it isn't just perfect and therefore lose out on the massive amounts of goodness that church has to offer (both in what it gives and the opportunities therein for the members to give back). No matter what, every church will be ran by humans and all humans are fallible and capable of messing up. You want a perfect church? You'll have to wait to die and go to heaven... But in the meantime, there is much good to be had through churches here on Earth - even now. All that being said, maybe the author is just saying there are some customs or traditions that aren't necessary for church and yet we all have them. That's cool. But unless they're straight-up heretical, don't let those be stumbling blocks for you to experience one of the primary ways I believe God has intended for His children to get to know and understand Him and His love better. *gets off soap box...* I think you made some good points here!
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Post by drawnsword on Sept 23, 2016 16:22:24 GMT -6
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 26, 2016 13:35:48 GMT -6
I read the foreword. There is a lot of truth to some of what they're saying, though I think a lot of potential danger too... I've been to Bible studies where the attendees are all pretty new to Christianity or just don't have that great of understanding of God and His Word. What happens is people start misinterpreting the Bible and ultimately coming up with theology that is incorrect. Sometimes this is minor and doesn't change anything critical. But sometimes something very little can turn one's understanding of the Word into something quite heretical and ultimately create a false god to worship. The structure of "church" (which IS biblical... just read Paul's letters - though of course it looks somewhat different nowadays) exists for a reason and I believe it is so those who are more knowledgeable and wise can bring up others to be knowledgeable and wise - and also they themselves continue in their growth and understanding too. Without good leadership, you can easily get a case of "the blind leading the blind" and I believe that can be absolutely disastrous. No preacher or pastor is perfect or omniscient, but as is stated in the Bible, they are held to higher standards and expected to know what they're doing.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 26, 2016 14:35:42 GMT -6
Unfortunately, that danger works both ways any time you step foot in a new church. I remember people at a Christian Church in Sunday school teaching us that a baptism is required for salvation. In other words, I was told that people who don't get baptised go to hell no matter what.
What about the thief on the cross? What about dying in a car wreck on the way to your baptism? "Oh, that's God's grace." So God plays favorites?
I'd venture there's a lot less poison to get tripped up over away from the church... as sad as that sounds...
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 26, 2016 17:24:28 GMT -6
Unfortunately, that danger works both ways any time you step foot in a new church. Absolutely and that is why it is SO important to check everything with Scripture. And if it doesn't check out, get the heck out of there! It's a bit of a catch-22 because one has to know the scripture to discern Truth/lies... and even then, it's not so clear (hence our other discussions on hell, etc.), but the benefit is that through the structure of the church, the pastor will have had the education, training, and time to devote to pastoring his "flock." I've led many weekly Bible studies and between work, social life, and time for rest, I found it pretty difficult to devote the proper amount of time each week to doing much preparation. I wasn't teaching though, I was facilitating. But were a handful of people like me - all with regular jobs and such - to just get together to read/discuss the Bible and call it "church"... well, at the very least I think they're selling themselves a bit short and at most, risking unintentionally wandering from good doctrine/theology into something much worse - more-so than if they were attending a church with set leadership, a high level of accountability, trained and capable teachers, etc. I am not saying it's necessarily "wrong" though I think it's more risky than it needs to be and I'm not sure that the upsides would be worth it.
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