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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 12:34:59 GMT -6
I'm sure many of us here are aware of (even though not totally being supportive of such a thing) the fact that Christianity exists, whether we like it or not, in a multiplicity of expressions.
This doesn't just mean the various denominations within Evangelical, or Traditional Protestantism, but Catholic, Orthodox, even fringe groups that lie outside the lines of what the majority would constitute 'orthodox' Christianity, often labeled 'pseudo'-Christian, but who are nevertheless sincere in the belief their faith gives shape to.
So, I was wondering, what different types of Christianity do people here subscribe to? Is everyone here basically 'Sola Scriptura/Bible Alone' Christians?
If that's the case, then I certainly am a deviation from the norm. Technically, I'm now Catholic, although I've found that my faith doesn't really fit any of the pre-set templates or molds made by existing denominations or expressions.
I have a love for liturgical worship and ceremony, but I'm disappointed with the Roman Catholic version as it exists today, and am drawn much more toward the Eastern Orthodox/Byzantine rite of liturgy.
Furthermore, I have begun to develop a much more mystical perspective with regards to my own spirituality and faith, which sort of takes me into different areas than most Christians.
I'm okay with that, and I believe we can all (and should) get along, and love one another as mutual brethren who share faith in the same Christ.
...of course... we all know that there is a tendency among Christians to accuse others of not being 'in the faith' when it deviates from the norm of their own tradition, denomination, or interpretation of how they think things should be.
I have done that myself as well in the past, but hope to have progressed (and continue to progress) beyond that type of mindset.
So, what does everyone else think about this?
Where is everyone from, spiritually speaking?
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 23, 2017 12:51:32 GMT -6
...of course... we all know that there is a tendency among Christians to accuse others of not being 'in the faith' when it deviates from the norm of their own tradition, denomination, or interpretation of how they think things should be. am drawn much more toward the Eastern Orthodox I used to have an Orthodox friend who claimed that Protestants weren't "of the faith" because we aren't Orthodox. I don't know if that's actually part of Orthodox doctrine, but ... there certainly seem to be enough who feel that way. I hope an Orthodox person can come along and prove me wrong on this? As for me, I'm Protestant. Sola scriptura. Cessationist.
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Post by Kerrick on Feb 23, 2017 12:55:24 GMT -6
Interesting thread topic! I grew up in a non-denominational protestant church setting but one that is very Bible-based, Armenian, and relatively conservative. This past year I got married to my wife who is Reformed (i.e. Calvinist). We’ve been attending a Reformed church and while I might still be somewhat teetering between the two (Reformed and Armenian), I would say I am leaning pretty far towards Reformed.
I agree, we should all “get along” no matter what. Though in terms of “judging” one another… I think it’s a little trickier. There are orthodox denominations (using myself as an example: Calvinists and Armenians may not agree, but neither should consider one another heretics) and unorthodox “Christian” views that go beyond the teachings of Scripture. Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the like would fall into the latter category. (And that’s where it gets tricky… case in point, our discussions on Universalism, of which different members here have very different views.) If we all consider ourselves Christian, we’re commanded to keep one another in line theologically and morally and I think doing so lovingly and graciously is the right thing to do. Just because many people might claim to worship Christ, it does not mean they all truly worship the same Christ IMO. Some of those “christs” are man-made reflections of ourselves we use to justify our own sinful and selfish wants.
And as for liturgical worship and ceremony, I would consider those things as personal preferences and so long as they are within God’s Word’s instructions of worship, then they’re great. We don’t get much instruction of what type or genre of music to worship Him with other than “beautiful noise,” for example.
I’ve more thoughts on this but I gotta go to a meeting in a few minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 13:49:17 GMT -6
I have to run myself as well, but plan to reply more appropriately a bit later.
Blessings all!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 23, 2017 16:53:47 GMT -6
As far as what I believe, I'd just call it "Christianity", because I don't know what else I'd call it. I don't really know the significant differences between denominations and terms like "Protestantism" and "Orthodox", I really don't know what they mean.
There's pieces of my "theology" scattered around this forum, but I can compile them here.
I think the term "Universalist" has been thrown around, since I don't believe people burn in hell "forever". (I don't know, do other universalists not think hell exists?) I'm guessing my view on the importance of scripture, how wrong some things are (like profanity, homosexuality, etc.) and a few other liberal conclusions are probably atypical of most Christians... Its probably atypical of how I handle other people being "wrong" when it comes to their beliefs as well.
Bottom line, I'm big on spirituality, prayer (communication with God), Christ as the savior of humanity and being OPENLY known as a man of faith. Not big on judging others or getting butthurt about people not believing like me - especially if we have the same God.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 16:54:27 GMT -6
I'm an evangelical Protestant, more on the Calvinist side. If I were to pick a denomination, I would go with Baptist. I mostly agree with them, but not 100%.
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Post by Bartimaeus on Feb 23, 2017 22:04:33 GMT -6
Great thread! I'm was raised in a fundamentalist (very legalistic) non-denom church in the Midwest, obviously got very discouraged and left the faith for a while, but came back to find myself very much in line with the reformed tradition. I consider myself a Presbyterian (PCA, not PCUSA) and a Calvinist, meaning that I believe that God is sovereign and any doctrine that magnifies God and humbles men is probably on the right track. I do love liturgy, especially the corporate confession of sin, though the church I am in now has a more "modern" order of worship. I'm excited that this forum exists and that you're here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 10:16:02 GMT -6
Wow, great replies all around. I think the diversity of the faith is such a beautiful thing really, it saddens me that there is often so much in-fighting. I used to have an Orthodox friend who claimed that Protestants weren't "of the faith" because we aren't Orthodox. I don't know if that's actually part of Orthodox doctrine, but ... there certainly seem to be enough who feel that way. I hope an Orthodox person can come along and prove me wrong on this? As for me, I'm Protestant. Sola scriptura. Cessationist. Yeah, unfortunately, this is the way Orthodox (and some Catholics) view the rest of Christianity, but... it's actually maybe a bit different in reality than it comes across. The Orthodox tradition is very rich (I don't mean in the monetary sense, but in the other sense of the word), historically speaking, so they view Christianity in a much different way than people in the West are more used to, within younger movements. It's not exactly 'doctrine' to ostracize other Christians, but they view things from a sense of 'the fullness of the faith,' that they feel other Christians are for the most part unaware of. I like Orthodoxy because it has a much more primitive sort of feel about it. Like, I can clearly see the connection between the first-century Christians in the catacombs (with their iconography) and the layout of Orthodox churches (you know what I mean if you've ever been in one). I agree, we should all “get along” no matter what. Though in terms of “judging” one another… I think it’s a little trickier. There are orthodox denominations (using myself as an example: Calvinists and Armenians may not agree, but neither should consider one another heretics) and unorthodox “Christian” views that go beyond the teachings of Scripture. Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the like would fall into the latter category. (And that’s where it gets tricky… case in point, our discussions on Universalism, of which different members here have very different views.) If we all consider ourselves Christian, we’re commanded to keep one another in line theologically and morally and I think doing so lovingly and graciously is the right thing to do. Just because many people might claim to worship Christ, it does not mean they all truly worship the same Christ IMO. Some of those “christs” are man-made reflections of ourselves we use to justify our own sinful and selfish wants Yeah, it's hard to overcome ourselves and love one another as we should (something I know well, and struggle with daily!). Personally, I'm somewhat of an inclusivist, in the sense that I think that anyone who puts their faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, is a Christian in the technical sense. Beyond that, 1 Corinthians 3 and 4 lets us know that there are many ways to build on the foundation (which cannot be removed), and to judge nothing before the time (4:5). So, in the end, Christ will be the judge of us all, and we all do the best we can with what we've got, our level of understanding, and the information we have at our disposal, which ideas we are convinced by, and why. Of course, all ways are not always beneficial, but all of them are "ways," and hold validity in that they are all groups based around the central ideas of Christ, however they may understand Him. I used to be of a more fundamentalist-type mindset, so I used to have a very "us vs. them" mentality with regards to other Christians. But now I see things in a much different way, like that there can only be one Christ, and we all see different sides of Him, we all get different parts of Him, and we interpret those things in ways which we pass down through the ages, no matter how old our traditions are. So, personally, I don't tend to view things in the sense of "different Christs." Some people may have been convinced by information in a movement that is more or less true, but faith is a personal thing, and a person holding faith in Christ is a powerful thing, whatever way it manifests itself. Of course, this is only my opinion, and I certainly haven't viewed things like that until the last year or so. I don't expect others to see it my way really, lol. I guess, simply put, I can say that I'm "post-ecumenical," which is to say, rather than seeing the need for Christians to come together as One united in faith, I see us all as already One body, united in faith, but that this reality just isn't realized by most (or worse, sometimes fought against by others). As far as what I believe, I'd just call it "Christianity", because I don't know what else I'd call it. I don't really know the significant differences between denominations and terms like "Protestantism" and "Orthodox", I really don't know what they mean. There's pieces of my "theology" scattered around this forum, but I can compile them here. I think the term "Universalist" has been thrown around, since I don't believe people burn in hell "forever". (I don't know, do other universalists not think hell exists?) I'm guessing my view on the importance of scripture, how wrong some things are (like profanity, homosexuality, etc.) and a few other liberal conclusions are probably atypical of most Christians... Its probably atypical of how I handle other people being "wrong" when it comes to their beliefs as well. Bottom line, I'm big on spirituality, prayer (communication with God), Christ as the savior of humanity and being OPENLY known as a man of faith. Not big on judging others or getting butthurt about people not believing like me - especially if we have the same God. Yeah, I really like the idea of a basic "Christianity" that transcends all denomination and division myself. Not that any of those groups are invalidated, far from it, but that true faith in Christ is something above all of that, above and apart from the different labels we tend to compartmentalize it into, in order to better grasp it. Study of the different denominations and movements within Christianity is a fascinating one, but retrospectively, I think it's one that should be entered into prayerfully and cautiously should one explore it. One of two things can happen: either one becomes entrenched in their own perspective unwaveringly, to the exclusion of all else; or one becomes baffled by the level of confusion among groups of the same faith (that claims exclusive truth) who all disagree among themselves on what the truth actually is. Not for the squeamish. Universalism is an interesting philosophy within Christianity that I've looked into a bit. Not exactly sure where I stand on the issue (if anywhere). Knowing the flaws in myself, I can only pray for God's mercy. Honestly, we should all be so blessed and hopeful that Universalism is true, imo. I'm an evangelical Protestant, more on the Calvinist side. If I were to pick a denomination, I would go with Baptist. I mostly agree with them, but not 100%. I hear you. I was actually Baptist, and Baptist-leaning for quite some time myself, and on the Calvinist side. What do you think of the Anabaptists? Studying the original Anabaptist movements was very interesting for me. Sort of refined where I stood on some issues at that time, as they became a very non-violent, non-sectarian (almost anarchistic, in the true sense of the word) movement, persecuted by both Catholic and Protestant movements in their time. Great thread! I'm was raised in a fundamentalist (very legalistic) non-denom church in the Midwest, obviously got very discouraged and left the faith for a while, but came back to find myself very much in line with the reformed tradition. I consider myself a Presbyterian (PCA, not PCUSA) and a Calvinist, meaning that I believe that God is sovereign and any doctrine that magnifies God and humbles men is probably on the right track. I do love liturgy, especially the corporate confession of sin, though the church I am in now has a more "modern" order of worship. I'm excited that this forum exists and that you're here. Hey thanks! I'm excited to be here too, with all of you! I fell in love with the Reformed tradition a few years ago, really tried to absorb everything within the few movements that grew out of the original Protestant Reformation. I became disappointed when I saw how those groups who carry on the original denominations bear so little resemblance to them. But truthfully, many denominations are like that, far removed from what they were when they began. A couple years ago I tried to find a Presbyterian church, and we found one not too far away from where we live. Ironically, the preacher there was Southern Baptist, and was preaching fundamental-Baptist Dispensationalism without the knowledge of the Presbytery who had hired him to lead the congregation. This preacher (who was a very kind man, hard working and Christ-focused) was teaching the congregation that the Presbyterian Church was wrong, unbiblical, etc. etc. I actually had a major crisis of faith/depression issues around that time which lasted the better part of a year and a half, until very recently, so I'd left that church because of that.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 24, 2017 12:32:54 GMT -6
Universalism is an interesting philosophy within Christianity that I've looked into a bit. Not exactly sure where I stand on the issue (if anywhere). Knowing the flaws in myself, I can only pray for God's mercy. Honestly, we should all be so blessed and hopeful that Universalism is true, imo. Universalism is pretty much moot when discussing among the saved. I've gotten a bad wrap because of it on other forums... but people don't seem to realize that it was the main concept of hell in early Christianity. (the burning in hell forever part didn't become "popular" until Rome grew in power, centuries later) I accept that its a verificationist idea - we can never know if its true or not, only speculate. At least there's no speculation when it comes to God's grace though!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 14:30:09 GMT -6
I'm pretty much open to any ideas within Christianity, whether or not I would personally agree with them. I keep in mind that the way I see things might not be the way other people see things, and we might all be wrong, and just sort of 'winging it.' We try to be as correct as possible, and that's fine. Open discussion (not debate) is a good thing, and it is my view that the Holy Spirit guides us as Christians throughout history, preparing us and forming our knowledge to refine our understanding of truths that are ultimately incomprehensible to the human intellect.
Sometimes it is only through consideration of divergent views that a deeper grasp of reality can be glimpsed. That's how I view things now: we have glimpses, we touch on things, we discuss, we consider. We tend to form groups with people who are like-minded and agree to the same kinds of things, but I guess too often the viewpoint has been one of "either/or," when it may not be that simple.
Where Universalism is concerned, I'm certainly not against it. I may not believe it myself, but I've thought about it, and I can see how some would think it makes sense.
For a long time over the past couple of years I thought the group that represented more what I thought I believed were the Christadelphians. I really liked their simplistic and humble, yet rationalist view on many things. Of course, I disagree with them on many points as well so... haha. I don't fit in anywhere.
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Post by drawnsword on Feb 26, 2017 4:00:39 GMT -6
I abide in the Living Christ outside of organized religion and I look for authentic community in Christ in everyday life in the people Father places around me. I believe Jesus is doing a powerful transformation in my life these last 3 years, in the wilderness where he's called me in this season. I think focusing on encouraging and seeing Christ within other believers rather than arguing over pet doctrines is life giving. Jesus is made unto me wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 8:11:55 GMT -6
Right on. I feel the Lord calling me into the wilderness as well, in a manner of speaking.
I actually appreciate organized religion for what it is, or could be rather... but for me it's not the 'be all, end all' of my faith, nor could ever be.
Sometimes I think faith is wild, with a cultivated reservation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 19:53:27 GMT -6
What do you think of the Anabaptists? Studying the original Anabaptist movements was very interesting for me. Sort of refined where I stood on some issues at that time, as they became a very non-violent, non-sectarian (almost anarchistic, in the true sense of the word) movement, persecuted by both Catholic and Protestant movements in their time. Hey, sorry for the late response to this. I actually had to do a bit of research on Anabaptism because I hadn't heard of it before (I don't know a whole lot about the history of Christianity, outside of what is mentioned in the Bible). I agree with their view on baptism (that it should only happen after someone professes faith in Christ, not during infancy), but I don't know enough about the rest of their theology to know where I stand.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 9:19:14 GMT -6
The Anabaptists were "ahead of their time" in many ways, spiritually speaking. As concerns theology, they did not actually get together to systematize their theological stance as did other Protestant groups, evidenced in the various confessions of faith drawn up at the time (see this wiki for list of various Reformed Confessions of Faith, as an example). The Anabaptists did have a Confession of Faith, but it was much more open and basic in comparison with others then extant: The Schleitheim Confession They challenged the religious authorities of their day, having the privilege of being heavily persecuted by both Catholic as well as Protestant Churches. The Anabaptist response became non-violence, especially because of the Münzter revolt, which has ever come to be seen as a blight upon the movement which they early on sought to distance themselves from, it seems. Since they weren't allowed in the official Churches, they often met in homes, barns, caves, fields, etc. Very inspiring movement, to say the least. Personally, I am inspired by any movement of professed Christians which are persecuted (rather than the persecutors), whether or not they fall outside the realm of "official Christianity."
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Mar 10, 2017 11:29:00 GMT -6
Oh, and I believe in eternal punishment. I believe this on the basis of:
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." - Revelation 14:11
and
". . . and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." - John 5:29
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 10, 2017 12:09:40 GMT -6
Oh, and I believe in eternal punishment. I believe this on the basis of: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." - Revelation 14:11 and ". . . and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." - John 5:29 ....but I digress since we don't need this thread to be a sequel to Damnation's Details.
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