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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 26, 2015 22:23:24 GMT -6
I'd like to preface by saying that I'd like for this to be a friendly discussion, and remember the big picture - if you've accepted Christ, (as I'm sure many if not all of us have) it doesn't ultimately matter what view you have of hell.
What are your views/opinions regarding the damnation process?
Literally conscious burning in flames for all eternity? Those cast into the lake of fire will cease to exist? No one burns forever and everyone gets out eventually?
My view (and this is frowned upon by many modern Christians for some reason) is pretty much universalism.
- I have a hard time accepting that the POWER of Christ dying for our sins can be completely nulled if someone has the "not believing" chemical combination in their brain when they buy the dirt farm. - I have a hard time reasoning that someone would be not only punished, but utterly tormented for eternity (millions of years) for something they did in a temporal/finite amount of time as a shell on a planet. Really? - I have a hard time accepting that if God throws ANY of his (lost) children in a pit to be tormented, that would literally make him worse than any human father on this planet. Just saying.
I do have scriptures to support my opinion, but I'll spare the quote wars for now.
I think "turn to Jesus or burn forever" is still very common for the same reason that we're still all facing the same direction on Sunday and singing 800 year old songs. Christianity loooooooooooves tradition.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 11:43:12 GMT -6
I guess I'll start this off then... I believe that after a person dies (oddly enough a friend in World of Warcraft passed earlier this week) they enter "soul sleep" (tldr; the next moment the person is awakened at Jesus' return) but that there occurs two deaths. The first, is of our mortal "shell". When Christ returns for the final judgement, He will raise up the believers in Christ to reign 1000 years before He resurrects the wicked/unsaved for judgement with the Book of Life. and after not being found in the Book of Life the souls are destroyed which is called the Second Death. Okay back on topic lol Based on John 11:11-14 Jesus when talking about his friend Lazarus that he's "sleeping" and then correcting the disciples that Lazarus is dead. And Jesus raised Lazarus, (John is a true account of the dead sleeping, the Luke Lazarus is a parable). Anyhow, that's why I believe the dead sleep and why I believe once a person dies if unsaved, he doesn't goto a fabled Catholic place like "purgatory" nor to "hell to burn" (as is the common belief) We also know God is a merciful God, so how merciful is it if God would send all the unbelievers to burn for all eternity in hell with the devil and false prophet. I believe that instead of burning forever, that the soul of the wicked is destroyed, eternal separation from God. And Jesus says to fear that who can destroy the soul (Matt 10:28) and where it references "hell" here in the Hebrew it is translated from Aramaic as Gehenna which was an area outside of Jerusalem called Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, or just the Valley of Hinnom, in Old Testament times and it was the refuse dump for trash and whatnot to be destroyed by fire. The Jewish Encyclopedia says the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." The writers of the Bible used things they knew of to explain the words that God gave them, because they had no concept of what we call burning in hell. In the OT the original texts have the word "hell" as translated "sheol" which is "a grave". You could also insert the greek "hades" for sheol also however, being hades was the greek pagan version of a hell, i don't know that hades would be a better translation so I would go with Sheol aka "the grave" because that's the Hebrew word. (thinking only the NT was written in Greek by Luke in the early days but could be mistaken) anyhow, wow this was long lol, I think that a person who hears the Gospel and rejects the free gift of salvation, their soul, will be destroyed at the second death. It also stands to reason that God would not torment someone forever because He loves everyone (Jesus sacrified Himself for the world after all) however sin and wicked cannot dwell in the house of the Lord nor in Heaven or in the New Jerusalem when it is established. Now, for the people who have never even heard about Christ and his sacrifice, I think they get a free pass. I mean how can one be condemned to destruction for not even knowing there is a choice (like a child or baby or some African tribe 2000 miles from anyone) when we're here all because satan challenged God about free will since satan himself doubted God's authority and power and wanted it for himself. I won't be able to reply until monday because I'm going to Indianapolis tonite for a pop-culture convention to meet John Waters and several bounty hunters from Star Wars called www.cultureshockcon.com
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 11:57:07 GMT -6
I think "turn to Jesus or burn forever" is still very common for the same reason that we're still all facing the same direction on Sunday and singing 800 year old songs. Christianity loooooooooooves tradition. Martin Luther (not MLK) didn't go enough away in the Reformation imo because of these traditions, albeit some of pagan origin and others created by the early catholics and jesuits (sp). I'm actually to the point now, I hate using the word "Christians" in referencing Believers in Christ because in Jesus earthly day, they were just "believers" back then prior to His ascension.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 18:42:28 GMT -6
Revelation 9 - 12
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 18:44:08 GMT -6
This verse indicates that unbelievers will BURN IN HELL FOREVER AND EVER hence eternal separation from God. Now I know this is all semantics etc and in the end it doesn't really matter but that is what I believe.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 27, 2015 20:19:25 GMT -6
You're welcome to believe what you want Larry - you share the same belief as my parents and brother.
Myself, I have a hard time taking Revelations literally, considering what's in there.
I mean, if I believe chapter 14 (what you quoted) to be literal, I'd also have to take chapter 9 literal. (locusts with gold crowns and human faces, women's hair, lion's teeth, scorpion stingers wearing little suits of armor and tormenting people for 5 months.)
...or that of the 7 billion people on the planet, there will only be 144,000 people "sealed" to heaven? (Revelations 7: 3-8)
Speaking of 144,000 did you know that if you take 6 x 6 x 6 you get 216. ...and if you take 144,000 / 666 you get 216.216216216216...
I just thought that was neat. I'm not a numerologist and I don't know what any of that means metaphorically but... My personal belief... Revelations is not literal.
None of it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 21:18:15 GMT -6
Could be but as I understand the 144,000 are all jews from the 12 tribes of Israel and not all that will be in heaven. We all know that there are things in this world that we do not see, nephilim, fallen angels, demons, angels from Christ etc. So with that in mind why couldn't some of those things be literal? Also if they are not literal then what do the mean or what are they metaphors for? I know that not EVERYTHING in the bible is literal but so much of it is that it is hard to tell what isn't sometimes. Also keep in mind that some think that the mark of the beast is not literal either. Some think that Christ has already come back, Some think that 99.9 percent of Revelations has already happened. I feel that God would not have put some of that stuff in the bible if it weren't to tell us what was going to happen. And if the unbelievers were just ended after a short time in hell they where would the real motivation be to avoid it? Once you are completely vanished nothing else would really matter would it? Whereas eternally being aware of eternal suffering and damnation would be really bad. Prophecy in the bible also references hell in the old testament stating that people in hell will desire a single drop of water to ease their suffering but none would be given. If they were simply vanquished why would that be in there. Rev. 14 may not be all literal but we are really given no way to know exactly what it means or if it is to be literal or not and if not what it is to mean. Then there are the 7 plagues and the 7 seals and the bowls of wrath. Literal? Metaphor? a cross between the two? I certainly don't know and I really don't know that any one interpretation is right or wrong. This is where I wish God would have said "here John this is what this vision means and it is to be taken THIS way or THAT way" But for some reason he gave this vision to John and had John write it in this way so since we are not John nor God I guess we just have to guess and stick with what we believe and just simply wait til we can ask him face to face
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 22:14:29 GMT -6
I've done a little reading on Universalism, Dale Thompson from Bride has done a lot of talking on the subject too. It is a wonderful thought. I am torn on what I believe happens to the unsaved after death. I think that's why we should share the Gospel as often as possible.
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Post by drawnsword on Mar 1, 2015 2:39:10 GMT -6
I find the teachings of Jesus about hell very clearly literal. This thinking of 'how can a loving God send people to hell?', reveals a lack of understanding about the character of God. The Lord God Almighty is HOLY HOLY HOLY. Only by the Blood of Jesus can we be hid in him through his life in us and then we are acceptable to stand. Here's the key bit; because he is so just and righteous, faithful and true it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to bend the rules on Judgement day, even though it breaks his heart. The order of how i understand it, when you die your judged, if you are not in Christ it is outer darkness with nashing of teeth until the great white throne judgement day and if your not found in the Lambs book of life it is into the lake of fire for eternal torment. if in Christ it is paradise until the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints and rewards for what you did are given at the judgement seat of Christ. Remember that it is not Gods will that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. And Hell was never created for man originally it was for the fallen angels.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 1, 2015 16:49:22 GMT -6
I don't think I was clear about something in my original post.
For one, I absolutely believe in hell, that hell is eternal and that people (will) go there. Its the people will be there forever part that I disbelieve.
Judgement, absolutely. Hell, absolutely - gotta burn that sin off. ...but our souls are for rent on this earth and all will eventually be in the presence of God.
God's love is so great, and his grace is so powerful, the GIFT of salvation is so mighty, He will have all people... eventually.
Uh oh. Look out. Tom's getting his Bible. (sorry, my recovery Bible is NIV)
John 12:28 Father, glorify your name!”
Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ____________________
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. ____________________
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ____________________
Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now(h) receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. ____________________
1st Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”(c) Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. ____________________
2nd Corinthians 5:16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:(a) The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin(b) for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. ____________________
Phillipians 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ____________________
1st Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. ____________________
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
(I like this one because it emphasizes that salvation isn't a "Well, I'll only give you this if you do this..." type of a gift.) ____________________
1st John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand last but not least,
2nd Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
("destruction of the ungodly" - sounds a little hopeless for them, right? Lets read on.)
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
I'll stop there for now.
My personal favorite references though for hell only being an eternal place that's temporary for people are not from The Bible-Canon. ....but too many Christians recoil from anything else written about God around the same time though. Puts a steel trap spin on the term "unbiblical" in my book. : /
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 6:23:49 GMT -6
However the bible CLEARLY says that many will cry lord lord and he will say to them DEPART FROM ME FOR I KNEW YOU NOT. He WANTS all to come to him but he knows NOT ALL will. There is a reason why the bible says the path to heaven is narrow and that FEW will find it. I really have a hard time with the theology that it doesn't matter what you do in your life as you will go to heaven anyway. That is not what the bible teaches.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 2, 2015 12:02:13 GMT -6
If you want to know the truth, there's Bible verses that support a literal conscious torment. There's verses that support annialationism (sp) and there's verses that support universalism.
For all we know, all three might be true or it may really be something different.
At least we know for sure, hell will suck - but I'm not going there and neither are you!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 4, 2015 9:54:25 GMT -6
Just saw an interesting interview with author Robin Parry who made some interesting points. He stated that people who believe in in eternal conscious torment are either limiting God's love, or limiting God's will.
....the bottom line is, God loves us all, and wants to draw all of us to him and eventually... HE WILL!
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Post by Varg on Aug 1, 2015 16:14:34 GMT -6
However the bible CLEARLY says that many will cry lord lord and he will say to them DEPART FROM ME FOR I KNEW YOU NOT. He WANTS all to come to him but he knows NOT ALL will. There is a reason why the bible says the path to heaven is narrow and that FEW will find it. I really have a hard time with the theology that it doesn't matter what you do in your life as you will go to heaven anyway. That is not what the bible teaches. This what I believe as well.
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Post by Ghoul on Aug 6, 2015 14:50:44 GMT -6
A friend of mine recommended me a book named "23 minutes in hell" by Bill Wiese. I'm about half way through it.
It is an incredible story. I don't know if I'm believe all this stuff he writes about, but it is very interesting. I don't know if you guys have heard about him or he's story. God was showing him Hell. For real. So he could go out and warn others about it. What he is talking about it is actually very biblically, not just TV pastor type of thing, if you know what I mean. So I would not just call this crap or a hoax (as I usually does to such stories)
There is a lot of movies on You tube. I have not seen them. Since I'm reading his book. I just want to share one short video.
Thoughts?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 18, 2016 17:34:24 GMT -6
Nothing anyone has said points to it being in the Bible that PEOPLE will be in hell FOREVER. Its NOT in the Bible so WHY BELIEVE IT? It only says that HELL (the place) is FOREVER.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 18, 2016 20:51:10 GMT -6
... If Hell is just a temporary punishment, what is the purpose of it even existing? I know you said "gotta burn that sin off". But wouldn't standing before God be enough?
Why would someone who died near the beginning of the world, suffer for thousands of years longer than someone who dies just a few days before the end of the world, both equally sinful, if both people are just going to be acquitted at the same time? I know about the parable where the man pays his servants equally for working different lengths of time, but that was a reward / daily wages. Can we really say the same principle would apply to punishment?
I don't really want to get involved in this, but at the same time, this is an extremely dangerous idea to be spreading around if it turns out you're wrong. We shouldn't be telling anyone (saved or unsaved) that we can just do and believe whatever we want and not worry about it because God will just let us all into Heaven anyway... when the Bible does not expressly 100% state this.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 18, 2016 21:52:30 GMT -6
The purpose of hell is to hold satan. It is eternal for him. It's more like a time of purging for humans, but not an eternity.
You ask why acquit a non believer? My question is, why threaten them with something that isn't biblical? Finite sin doesn't mean jack shit to God. It's paid for. Sin is nothing after we die and it's commercial Christianity that has made sin and death eternal.
I don't have any proof for this next statement, but I think non believers wouldn't be entitled to the crowns/rewards/VIP pass in heaven that followers would. In this case, since Christ paid for all sins, and wants to draw all to him, I believe everyone gets admitted. ...just some people will only get in. The righteous will get in and be living it up.
I think there's some hidden pride that many Christians think heaven is an exclusive club for them... in fact, I think some revel in the power of hellfire to coerc fear.
Universalism isn't gospel. It's not something you push on others, but it is biblical if you read the verses I posted above. I'm not sending anyone to hell for what I personally believe because I wouldn't enforce the point of eternal hell or a temporary one. Only Christ's love and mercy.
Has any Christian ever thought of what if they're wrong about people eternally burning in hell? Think of the millions of people affected by a threatening lie for no reason. I wouldn't want that on my judgement roster...
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 18, 2016 22:55:34 GMT -6
Think of the millions of people affected by a threatening lie for no reason. I wouldn't want that on my judgement roster... It wouldn't matter because they'd all go to Heaven. But we don't talk about Hell for "no reason" or because Heaven is an "exclusive club", we talk about it because we worry and care about the unsaved; we want them to turn away from [the stuff that sends them to Hell], and live in eternal peace.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 18, 2016 23:26:00 GMT -6
Just because people don't burn in hell forever doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
People will still be cast into hell. That is biblical. Hell is an eternal place. That is also biblical.
There is NOTHING biblical about people burning in hell FOREVER. Look it up! It is NOT there!!! So why invest in it as strongly as something that is biblical? Here we are deep in this thread and NO ONE continues to answer this! ...and me saying it over and over isn't registering. People burning forever is still as true for many of you as if it was in the bible.
But it's NOT THERE!!! There would not be any people like myself if the Bible did explicitly say PEOPLE burn in hell FOREVER.
You know, hellfire is just as hot if you go there for a while. Why the stubbornness on thinking people + hell = forever when it's not even in the bible? Is man's ancient conclusion that it is just as powerful as the bible to you guys? Do you think no one would get saved if they knew they just had to do a little hard time before paradise?
Is Christ's dying for our sins so cheap that it stops working if someone dies without a certain thought process? I certainly don't think so...
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 19, 2016 9:43:26 GMT -6
So why invest in it as strongly as something that is biblical? I already explained why in my first two posts. Because this is extremely dangerous territory to be treading if even a small possibility exists, that someone's eternal salvation could be at stake. There is NOTHING biblical about people burning in hell FOREVER. Look it up! It is NOT there!!! I'm torn at this point. Should I post a verse or not? Mind you I can only find one verse right now, but still. I'm concerned, because you seem convinced that if eternal conscious punishment is true, then God is suddenly a bad guy. (Quote, "... if God throws ANY of his (lost) children in a pit to be tormented, that would literally make him worse than any human father on this planet. Just saying".) And that's not true. God gives us so many chances in our lives to try and get us to turn away from Hell, which He wants no one to go to (Ezekiel 18:23, 18:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4). There are so many things, obvious and subtle, that God does for us every day and reaches out to people. So many, that we're posting on a forum that exists for the express purpose of talking about one specific style of Christian music, black metal. We might not even have one today - we originally had Blackened Hymns, then that was deleted, but now we have another one in its place. God is working in so many ways in our world. Everyone who ends up in Hell was sent there for a reason. With that said, Revelation 14:11 (emphasis mine) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 11:32:42 GMT -6
I'm torn at this point. Should I post a verse or not? I'm not so proud to concede I couldn't be wrong. I don't want you to think I'd flip out on anyone for being proven wrong. I might totally edit your posts to make it seem like you're calling yourself a poopyhead, but I wouldn't be mad at being shown I'm incorrect. (I'm totally joking about that by the way - please don't think I'd ever do that) I might be passionate about this topic for several reasons. 1) Everyone eventually (key word, eventually) being drawn to God TRULY shows how loving He is and 2) I think its dangerous to press an eternal point that is not biblically proven to be eternal. Dangerous not because of eternal hellfire, but dangerous because of the confusion generated by "God is love", "God wants everyone", but oh by the way "God will torture you f-o-r-e-v-e-r if you don't believe something.". Revelation 14:11 (emphasis mine) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Thank you!!!! I've been waiting for that one! That is the best verse I've seen to counteract universalism. Great job doing something I've seen no one else do. Of course, I have an explanation for you though. While I completely agree people being tormented will have no rest day or night, and those unsaved WILL go to hell, "the smoke of their torment forever and ever" doesn't mean the first ones in hell will ALWAYS be part of that "smoke". That's just not being said. I'm looking at it this way. Lets say a pizza restaurant has been open since 1914. Their ovens have been running since then. How many people though would think "The smoke from their cooking will burn for 200 years" means the pizzas from 1914 are still there? [candy] I rest my case. Because this is extremely dangerous territory to be treading if even a small possibility exists, that someone's eternal salvation could be at stake. Small possibility? There's nothing biblical that HUMANS BURN FOREVER. That makes it hearsay! Actually, it slander's God's will and love. I'm concerned, because you seem convinced that if eternal conscious punishment is true, then God is suddenly a bad guy. (Quote, "... if God throws ANY of his (lost) children in a pit to be tormented, that would literally make him worse than any human father on this planet. Just saying".) And that's not true. The Bible repeatedly uses the terms "children" and "father" in terms of us and God. That has a certain behavioral connotation to people. Roll with me on this explanation because this is why I cannot accept eternal torment for people... Lets say I become a father, and my child doesn't believe in me as Lord and Savior, so I put them in a room to be TORTURED for the rest of their life which happens to only be 26 years. That sort of incident would be legendary in the news world and obviously, I would be considered a monster for doing something like that. Prison for life or lethal injection I'm sure. ...but God isn't a monster as a FATHER for taking His CHILD that doesn't believe something and torturing them for 26 years, times 26 more years, times a billion more years, times 937 trillion more years, times 9,234,192,485,817 Googolplex more years to hey, we're just getting started with FOREVER here???????? If someone gets told this as a potential Christian, how the hell are they going to understand that God is REALLY love? Why not say what that would really be - "Oh God is love, but its totally CONDITIONAL to a specific brain juice combination, then He forgets who you are as you are tortured infinitely." God gives us so many chances in our lives to try and get us to turn away from Hell, which He wants no one to go to (Ezekiel 18:23, 18:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4). Another reason I liked your post. If God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, then why send anyone there for FOREVER? God must not be able to get people out of hell then... or he must really want them to be there. How can God really love someone, and then torture them INFINITELY and we still consider him just and good? That God just sounds like an emotionally unstable monster to me. This goes back to the Robin Parry quote I mentioned. ONLY when you make it FOREVER for people do you automatically LIMIT God's love or his will for people. Even if hell is LIMITED to 1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 9,234,192,485,817 Googolplex years - finite is not forever. My heart tells me that hell torment is punishment, but it will end. It is not FOREVER for HIS CHILDREN. That TOTALLY still allows for hellfire to be hot enough not to want to go there, and God's love and will to triumph. Christ has the keys to hell, so once people's afterlife prison time is over with, we get to be free with Him! In closing, let me ask which letter best describes you guys: A) God loves all, unless you don't believe then he'll forget about you and torture you forever. B) God doesn't love all, that's why he'll be torturing people for forever. C) God loves all and wants people to be with him, that's why for people, hell is not eternal. D) God loves all and wants all, that's why no people will go to hell. E) God loves all and wants all, but he just can't keep some people out of hell forever. I truly feel like you'd pick A, but it seems to me like you're heavily leaning toward E. ...which I'm guessing you'll say is incorrect. I'm C, but I feel like you probably think I'm a pretty big chunk of D. ...which I'll tell you is incorrect. Am I making any sense here?
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 19, 2016 12:04:43 GMT -6
EDIT: ninja'd. I'll read Thomas' above post now. Funny, I was reading through 2 Thessalonians the other day and thought of this thread. Thomas, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on 2 Thessalonians 2: (Emphasis mine.) I think the "but" in verse 13 is pretty crucial too. There is a clear contrast between destruction and being saved. If everyone gets "saved," how is it any longer "saving" since there's nothing to be saved from? What do the words "condemned" and "perish" mean to you? How does belief in the truth have any role in saving people if everyone is saved? There is NOTHING biblical about people burning in hell FOREVER. Look it up! It is NOT there!!! Upon a quick internet search... Matthew 10:28Matthew 23:33Matthew 25:46Luke 16:23John 3:36While I was searching for those verses, I stumbled upon this short article which makes a pretty compelling argument against universalism as well and one I probably wouldn't have thought of on my own.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 13:28:03 GMT -6
I saw this blur of a backflip go by and thought it was you. LOL [shoppingcart] 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Sorry chief, NI's verse was better. While this ↑ emphasizes people going to hell for denying Christ, it still doesn't state that people will be there for eternity. There is a clear contrast between destruction and being saved. If everyone gets "saved," how is it any longer "saving" since there's nothing to be saved from? What do the words "condemned" and "perish" mean to you? How does belief in the truth have any role in saving people if everyone is saved? Condemned and perish mean the same to me as you. The real difference here between me and you guys is the forever part of hell. See, I don't believe people "perish forever" because the Bible doesn't say that. Still not sure why you guys think people are in hell forever... "Saved" implies accepting salvation and we all know not everyone will. Back on point, this doesn't mean hell is eternal for people. LOL any reason you quoted the UK NIV Bible rather than the US one? Destroy is certainly a powerful adjective, but its not synonymous with eternity. We can both agree hell will "ruin" or "defeat" them. (which are synonyms to "destroy") but it still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. I don't think any people are capable of escaping hell. Only Christ/God has the keys and this still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. So verses 44 and 45 raise my left eyebrow. So, hell is what happens to people "refusing" to "help" someone who's hungry/thirsty/naked/a stranger/etc? Last time I checked, accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior was the requirement for heaven, not because I didn't donate to the foodbank or talk to someone I didn't know that I walked past. I don't believe this (44-46) is to be taken literally. (like Christ telling people to gouge out an eye and cut off a hand) Its clearly off the cuff to emphasize how important this servicework is. Like my old boss saying years ago "next agent that uses the INTNOREAS source code is fired and so is their supervisor" (which would have been me). HR would never allow that. She later clarified she said it that way to wake everyone up and stress the emphasis on stopping that error. Good find on the eternal punishment part though. I agree, this confirms torment, but this still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. I agree that those who believe in God will go to heaven and those who don't will go to hell, but this still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. While I was searching for those verses, I stumbled upon this short article which makes a pretty compelling argument against universalism as well and one I probably wouldn't have thought of on my own. For one, this says nothing about hell is eternal for people. (noticing a pattern here? ) ...for two, I question if I would be considered a true universalist. I think I might just be a dude that doesn't believe people burn in hell forever, only for a time. ...for three, I want to ask, what's your definition of blasphemy? See, Satan is guilty of blasphemy because he tried to overthrow/become God. He didn't just say it - he used his powers to TRY it. People... aren't at all capable of trying that. They can say things like "Fuck you God, I'm the real God" and "Hail Satan! He's the real God!" but... those are just words. Those words can ensnare others (thinking of cult leaders here) but... is that really blasphemy? I'd just call that the most extreme and dangerous form of lying... and last time I checked, dishonesty is not an unpardonable sin.
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 19, 2016 15:19:57 GMT -6
I saw this blur of a backflip go by and thought it was you. LOL [img src="http://storage.proboards.com/6153878/i/D_YOQRocDf9vfBbgVLBR.gif" alt="[shoppingcart]" class="smile"] Hahaha no I think the blur was you... Sorry chief, NI's verse was better. While this ↑ emphasizes people going to hell for denying Christ, it still doesn't state that people will be there for eternity. Condemned and perish mean the same to me as you. The real difference here between me and you guys is the forever part of hell. See, I don't believe people "perish forever" because the Bible doesn't say that. Still not sure why you guys think people are in hell forever... "Saved" implies accepting salvation and we all know not everyone will. Back on point, this doesn't mean hell is eternal for people. Valid. But it certainly does nothing to insinuate a temporary state and I would argue it DOES at least insinuate eternal salvation/damnation. You agree that saving is eternal, yes? So when the section on condemnation is directly contrasted to those who are saved, I don't think it makes sense to say, "these people will be temporarily condemned, BUT God chose you guys to have eternal salvation" which is basically what you're claiming here (unless I'm mistaken?). Wouldn't it make more sense to say, "these people are condemned forever but you are forever saved"? LOL any reason you quoted the UK NIV Bible rather than the US one? Haha yeah sorry 'bout that. I had found those on a website with those links so I just got lazy and copied/pasted. Destroy is certainly a powerful adjective, but its not synonymous with eternity. We can both agree hell will "ruin" or "defeat" them. (which are synonyms to "destroy") but it still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. Fair enough. To me, "destroy" seems pretty absolute but that's not really worth debating IMO. I don't think any people are capable of escaping hell. Only Christ/God has the keys and this still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. I read it a bit differently. It seems more like Jesus is just saying that their condemnation is inevitable. But you're right, not much there about eternity, depending on your understanding of the word "condemnation." So verses 44 and 45 raise my left eyebrow. So, hell is what happens to people "refusing" to "help" someone who's hungry/thirsty/naked/a stranger/etc? Last time I checked, accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior was the requirement for heaven, not because I didn't donate to the foodbank or talk to someone I didn't know that I walked past. I don't believe this (44-46) is to be taken literally. (like Christ telling people to gouge out an eye and cut off a hand) Its clearly off the cuff to emphasize how important this servicework is. Like my old boss saying years ago "next agent that uses the INTNOREAS source code is fired and so is their supervisor" (which would have been me). HR would never allow that. She later clarified she said it that way to wake everyone up and stress the emphasis on stopping that error. Good find on the eternal punishment part though. While the above verses I believe insinuate or help bolster the idea of eternal salvation or eternal punishment... this verse seems very clear, though it does require understanding of other biblical concepts - namely, faith and works. James 2 and Ephesians 2, when coupled together, clear that up IMO. So if salvation is through faith in Christ (be it predestined or not), and works are outward signs of an internal faith, then what I believe Christ is saying here is that the ways the people here either loved or particularly didn't love others is a direct indication of their hearts/faith. Yes, people are not literally "sheep" or "goats" but Jesus' statement of eternal punishment or life does not seem "off the cuff" at all to me... I agree, this confirms torment, but this still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. Keep reading... "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” I don't see it implying "...except for Jesus" or "...except when Jesus comes to take them into heaven." I agree that those who believe in God will go to heaven and those who don't will go to hell, but this still doesn't say hell is eternal for people. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them." Are we looking at the same verse? That looks pretty darn eternal to me. Again, the "but" implies the opposite of eternal life which would be eternal judgment/death. It doesn't say, "will not see life for a while" or "will temporarily not see life." It says, "will not see life." Period. God's wrath doesn't pass over them for a while but it remains on them. For one, this says nothing about hell is eternal for people. (noticing a pattern here? ) ...for two, I question if I would be considered a true universalist. I think I might just be a dude that doesn't believe people burn in hell forever, only for a time. ...for three, I want to ask, what's your definition of blasphemy? See, Satan is guilty of blasphemy because he tried to overthrow/become God. He didn't just say it - he used his powers to TRY it. People... aren't at all capable of trying that. They can say things like "Fuck you God, I'm the real God" and "Hail Satan! He's the real God!" but... those are just words. Those words can ensnare others (thinking of cult leaders here) but... is that really blasphemy? I'd just call that the most extreme and dangerous form of lying... and last time I checked, dishonesty is not an unpardonable sin. Whoa, that's a big theological claim you just made and I do not agree... "Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they were saying, 'He has an impure spirit.'” Jesus isn't talking about Satan here, he's talking about people. Jesus is saying that people are capable of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And if Jesus' Words aren't clear enough, upon searching for commentaries online, the unanimous agreement is that humans are capable. I browsed this article which seems pretty spot-on IMO. Agreed, this is more oriented towards full-on universalists... though I do believe the logic still applies. You believe that salvation is the forgiveness of sins, correct? And that Christ saves EVERYONE because He forgives EVERYONE'S sins, right? However, if there is an unforgivable sin, then how does Jesus forgive it? And if He doesn't forgive those people, then they are not saved. And if not everyone is saved, where do they go if not forever in hell? For the record, I am really grateful we can have these discussions here and hope that they sharpen, challenge, and grow all participating and reading. I'm stoked that we can do so maturely, lovingly, and peacefully. Y'all are awesome. And with that... wait for it... Haha awkward kissy face strikes again!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 16:58:14 GMT -6
I saw this blur of a backflip go by and thought it was you. LOL [shoppingcart] Hahaha no I think the blur was you... Yeeeeeeeeee son I'm so quick I'm even fast asleep [dancing] So if salvation is through faith in Christ (be it predestined or not), and works are outward signs of an internal faith, then what I believe Christ is saying here is that the ways the people here either loved or particularly didn't love others is a direct indication of their hearts/faith. I could see that. We're close to agreeing, I think I view this as more of an emotional response. I mean, "If you believe in me, then you'll give/help/etc." is a different emotional tier than "You believe in Me? WELL you SURE don't ACT like it!!!". To me, this is one of the more heated parables. "You didn't help me so you'll burn forever while everyone goes to paradise." seems like the God (father) / us (child) version of a human father/child conversation of "You didn't clean your room so you are never going to Knight's Action Park ever again and I'll be taking your brother." *slams the door* Whoa, that's a big theological claim you just made and I do not agree... "Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they were saying, 'He has an impure spirit.'” Jesus isn't talking about Satan here, he's talking about people. Jesus is saying that people are capable of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. See, this is something I don't quite understand. I'll give you that people are capable of blasphemy based on how the Bible defines blasphemy... (not how Thomas Eversole defines it) ...but I'm still not seeing where just because a sin isn't pardoned, that means HELL FOREVER. "blasphemy is unforgiveable, therefore, hell forever" really just makes this the second logical fallacy (not backed by scripture) in this scenario. (the first being "hell is forever, people go to hell, therefore, people will be in hell forever") I prefer this article, which re-explains that CARM one and refutes it. www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.htmlFor the record, I am really grateful we can have these discussions here and hope that they sharpen, challenge, and grow all participating and reading. I'm stoked that we can do so maturely, lovingly, and peacefully. Y'all are awesome. And with that... wait for it... Haha awkward kissy face strikes again! Dude awkward kissy face is on two current threads now! LOL I love that we can debate those things as well! You know, even though we might be at ends on a few things, there are 3 really good things about all this. 1) We're of the Christian faith so we're all good regardless 2) I think my thread did a good job of having everyone who participated (myself included) to get our bibles out 3) I decided not to replace Kerrick and NI's avatars with poorly hand drawn wiener sketches because they were debate thrashing me AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 18:15:26 GMT -6
A request for a little change of pace. I've been offering explanations for the verses you've quoted and how they don't add up to a forever-for-people hell. How about a little return of the favor?
If I may be so bold, I think that if you believe people will be in hell forever ...that you are in disagreement with these ↓ verses. (Bible time again gents!)
Thoughts?
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 20, 2016 13:00:38 GMT -6
I'll check those out and also respond to your other post once I can!
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 20, 2016 13:03:57 GMT -6
p.s. Nobody else wants to chime in anymore?
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 20, 2016 16:33:12 GMT -6
I could see that. We're close to agreeing, I think I view this as more of an emotional response. I mean, "If you believe in me, then you'll give/help/etc." is a different emotional tier than "You believe in Me? WELL you SURE don't ACT like it!!!". To me, this is one of the more heated parables. "You didn't help me so you'll burn forever while everyone goes to paradise." seems like the God (father) / us (child) version of a human father/child conversation of "You didn't clean your room so you are never going to Knight's Action Park ever again and I'll be taking your brother." *slams the door* Ok, so we're in agreement that it's a heart-issue then it'd seem. I definitely do not believe Jesus is saying the "well you sure don't act like it so bam you're condemned" though you make an important distinction. I think the answer may lie in " if you believe in me..." The "if" part is simple: you either believe or you don't. But believe in what? That's where the "me" part comes in and which is the big one here I think. Just who is "me"? Yes, it's Jesus, we all know that, but is Jesus the Son Of God and the only way to the Father... or a wise guy who said some good stuff or a way to get to heaven or "Buddy Christ" or...? Perhaps the most crucial part of this parable is just who people are believing in. Some time ago I heard a sermon about how people make up their own Jesus who is really just a reflection of their own self/desires but shrouded in faux-holiness and rationalized by cherry-picked Bible verses. But I guess for this discussion, the question is more about the separation between the sheep and the goats - whatever the reason may be. There are those who knew Christ and those who did not. Those who knew attain eternal life and those who do not get eternal punishment. I'm still failing to see how "eternal punishment" is not eternal? See, this is something I don't quite understand. I'll give you that people are capable of blasphemy based on how the Bible defines blasphemy... (not how Thomas Eversole defines it) ...but I'm still not seeing where just because a sin isn't pardoned, that means HELL FOREVER. "blasphemy is unforgiveable, therefore, hell forever" really just makes this the second logical fallacy (not backed by scripture) in this scenario. (the first being "hell is forever, people go to hell, therefore, people will be in hell forever") Hmm, I'm not sure how to word my thoughts differently... but I'll try. Let's start back a little ways and let me know if you disagree anywhere along the way... God created the world and Man and it was all good until Adam and Eve sinned. "For the wages of sin is death" and death is what they brought upon us all. God gave us all a death sentence [maybe this is where we disagree: the wages of sin being more than just your physical heart pounding or being buried six feet under]. Nothing by our own power or abilities could save us. But God had mercy and sent His Son to die for us as a sacrifice. The ONLY way to salvation is Christ's sacrifice which wipes us clean of our sins. We cannot have sin in our lives and be in the presence of God, i.e. if we're not forgiven, we're not getting to heaven. That's the kicker right there and I do not think is a "logical fallacy." We MUST be forgiven by God through Christ's sacrifice before we enter into God's presence. Now I think that is pretty clearly laid out in the Bible. THEREFORE, if there exists an unforgivable sin, there can exist unforgiven people/souls. And if they are unforgiven, they are not saved. As for the first "logical fallacy," it depends on your understanding of the wages of sin and condemnation. Claiming it's a logical fallacy seems like an attempt to discredit the person making the claim and insulting their intelligence... Maybe I'm just reading too much into it. Anyways, verses like 1 John 1:7-9, John 3:18, Mark 16:16, Romans 3:23, etc. describe how humans are unworthy on our own and how we are condemned. I think Romans 6:23 is one of the verses that implies condemnation being eternal. "For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Daniel 12:2 and Thessalonians 1:9 also speak of this. Maybe we should look more into understanding just what "death" and "condemnation" mean in these contexts? I don't have time but I'll check this out. I skimmed it though. Really it all just goes back to what I said above about one's understanding of condemnation and death. In the author's final remarks, he uses the analogy of a judge sentencing a guilty person. He assumes it's a finite sentence, maybe one year or five years in jail or whatever. I believe (in part due to the reasons stated above) the more appropriate analogy would be a death sentence with no parole or re-trial or anything of the like. Jesus doesn't pardon us from our varying respective finite sentences... He pardons us from our DEATH SENTENCE. Reading some of the analogies that have been used has got me thinking about something that I think is important to mention. Analogies are great (heck, Jesus gave lots!) but they are incomplete. Additionally, they are us finite beings trying to describe the Infinite God with our own understandings of how our own broken, sinful, and ever-fleeting world works. The danger with them is in seeing things through our human lenses and not acknowledging that we may not be taking into account our warped sense of right and wrong. What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't be trying to judge God based on human standards. "Right" and "wrong" have changed over the years (just look at the laws that have been put in place) and are never agreed upon (just wait until voting season comes around and see how much people so strongly believe that something is so obviously right or so clearly wrong...). So when we make claims of "a 'loving' god could never send someone to hell," it's with our human understanding of what "love" is and what "right" and "wrong" are. I think that's basically what Isaiah is getting at in 29:16: You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, "You did not make me"? Can the pot say to the potter, "You know nothing"? Something to keep in mind as we continue this conversation anyways. I decided not to replace Kerrick and NI's avatars with poorly hand drawn wiener sketches because they were debate thrashing me AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Bahaha oh I would have definitely laughed and probably left it up for too long (har har har, pun intended). I'll look up those verses and reply later.
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