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Post by drawnsword on Sept 20, 2016 18:26:05 GMT -6
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 20, 2016 18:29:30 GMT -6
p.s. Nobody else wants to chime in anymore? Eh, not really. I said pretty much everything I needed to. And then you also posted a few verses, so I don't really have much else to add. I don't really like "debating" much.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 21, 2016 9:14:44 GMT -6
Eh, not really. I said pretty much everything I needed to. And then you also posted a few verses, so I don't really have much else to add. I don't really like "debating" much. Some people don't care to debate about stuff, I really do, but I don't have indefinite stamina/endurance regarding it. Actually, when I brought this up on the Sanctuary International forum, I eventually had two guys named Chris clearly say that for believing this, I'm not saved and going to hell. That kind of fucking bullshit from those dickheads will certainly make me not want to talk about this topic anymore...
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 21, 2016 10:24:53 GMT -6
I'll quote myself from the CMR which is relevant here I think...
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 22, 2016 13:02:53 GMT -6
I'm not sure how this verse applies? I think this verse actually speaks against your point: "repent... that your sins may be blotted out." It suggests for one's sins to be blotted out, they must first repent. If no repentance, no blotting out... I think you may be referencing the "all things restored" part. Are you suggesting that all souls in heaven = all things restored? That's one way to interpret that, though I think of it as maybe justice being served. I think of a city with active criminals. Is the city restored when all criminals are caught and put in jail? I think so. Either way, I don't know if this verse speaks much at all to the eternal salvation/damnation topic. On the surface, that certainly does indeed seem like all of humanity. I skimmed through this article which might give some more insight of just what (and who) Paul is talking about here. The author discusses how if you look at the context of the verse (who he's writing to, etc.), "all men" is more appropriately translated as "the class under the law and the class without the law" (i.e. all Christians - but the Jews who had the law and converted to Christianity and the gentiles who did not have the law before they converted to Christianity). Here's an excerpt: It so happens that death, coming upon both classes of people has come upon every individual because everyone has sinned. But righteousness, although it does not discriminate between the two classes of people, is not imputed to every individual because not everyone believes. Notice Romans 3:21-22 again: "But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction." All have sinned, but only those who believe are counted righteous.I think the crucial part here is "... may have mercy on them all." The traditional Christian view is that Christ came for all but only some accept Him and I think that is in line with this verse. As with the first Romans verse, context is important here. He's writing to Christians about Christians. "All men" in this instance is the Christians who have already died (the firstfruits) and those who are still alive. The part about "those who belong to Him" is pretty critical here I think. What do you make of verse 20 then? If everyone is already reconciled, why would Paul "implore" people to be reconciled? Also, I'm pretty certain reconciliation is not salvation but rather a step towards it. I think all this is saying is that at the time of judgment, everyone will know who's God and bow down to Him. It's just that for some, it'll be too late. Just because God wants all people to spend eternity with Him, it doesn't mean that's what will happen. There are plenty times in the Bible when God's heart breaks for His people. Do you think He wants His heart to break for them? Does He want to be grieved? I don't think so. But it happens because we humans are not robots and are subject to sin. But of course He would want everyone to be in heaven. I think all that this is saying is that it is only through Christ that men can be saved - not that He is saving everyone, much like Acts 4:12 states. See my comments for the 1 Timothy verse. According to this article I found, it seems that "all men" is more appropriately translated as "all men without distinction of age, sex, or social standing." What do you think Romans 9:15 means then?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 17:11:14 GMT -6
I was reading through 1 Timothy today and this verse stuck out to me:
"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV)
I don't think I'm a universalist; I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. But this verse made me think.
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 27, 2016 18:13:04 GMT -6
Earlier Thomas claimed that those who do not accept Christ need to pay for their sin in hell for a finite amount of time before they go to heaven. This begs the question of what Christ meant when He said, "it is done." If Christ truly paid the price of salvation, what are people in hell doing paying for it too? Was it truly not "done" and should He have instead said, "it is done... once you pay for your sins too"? I do not think so, but I do not see how else to view this then.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 27, 2016 19:34:47 GMT -6
I don't think I'm a universalist; I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. But this verse made me think. Keeping in mind verses like Mat 25:46, John 3:16, etc, I read verses like (the one you posted) to mean that Jesus offered/offers salvation to all, but some people may not accept it.
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 29, 2016 10:42:18 GMT -6
...to mean that Jesus offered/offers salvation to all, but some people may not accept it. My wife and I have been reading through the Gospel of John in the mornings and today came upon this section: It certainly seems to me that what Jesus is saying aligns with what you said, NI. That leads to the Calvinist/Armenian debate we started in another thread, though for this discussion, it seems pretty clear to me.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 29, 2016 12:31:15 GMT -6
Earlier Thomas claimed that those who do not accept Christ need to pay for their sin in hell for a finite amount of time before they go to heaven. This begs the question of what Christ meant when He said, "it is done." If Christ truly paid the price of salvation, what are people in hell doing paying for it too? Was it truly not "done" and should He have instead said, "it is done... once you pay for your sins too"? I do not think so, but I do not see how else to view this then. I looked at it like this. Say you go with a church group to a theme park and they pay for your ticket in. You refuse the gift, then find out that's where you needed to go... so now, you've got to pay to get through. I know, horrible analogy. I still think it really cheapens Christ's death if millions of people say "no thanks" leads them to infinite destruction. I play the chemo card enough, and wish I could muster the strength to respond to the other posts. ._.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 3, 2016 12:08:12 GMT -6
I was reading through 1 Timothy today and this verse stuck out to me: "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV) I don't think I'm a universalist; I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. But this verse made me think. There's lots of verses like that, that allude towards a God that will draw everyone to him. That's entirely the point of the verses I posted, which get dismissed because of a context, but the entire motive (the true context) for me mentioning those verses is because of those "hints" that God WANTS all of mankind to be with him. Lets assume for a second that predestination is out and people have the power to choose their eternity. I think its safe to say that in this scenario, everyone who goes to hell forever, probably didn't understand the full implications of this decision. They probably also don't understand that failure to decide, has the same consequences as rejecting salvation. Why would a God who WANTS everyone to come to him (as savior of ALL people) let someone do that to themselves? I mean, if you saw your grown child about to accidentally dive headfirst into a firepit, would you just shrug and "Well, they made their choice" or would you be their "SAVIOR"? Now lets assume for a second that predestination is in, and God chooses who will be with Him in heaven because He's sovereign and He has all power, not us. As savior of ALL, why would God only want some (not all) people to be with Him? Passively watching someone die eternally doesn't sound very loving to ALL, especially when THOUGHTS/BELIEFS are the reason for damnation - so is God not really love? So the repentant murderer who spent 20 years in prison will enjoy paradise forever because he THOUGHT of Christ as savior and the moral accountant who has never been to prison but only THOUGHT of Christ as a decent ancient person will be tortured FOREVER? Also, I think it scares the hell out of Christians the thought that EVERYONE will get to glory. I think its an ego thing. Here we are, doing all this work to secure our place in heaven, and then some jerk who thinks its all a fairy tail gets in too? ...like that's more unfair than them burning forever? To me, it makes infinitely more sense that God is Love, God is a SAVIOR, God WANTS everyone if you show up with your crowns and an atheist shows up with none. Burning someone FOREVER, ETERNALLY, INFINITELY because someone had 80 years to form a belief in their brain but didn't begs too many questions on what we know of God's wants, His love and his Power...
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 3, 2016 18:44:05 GMT -6
Actually, when I brought this up on the Sanctuary International forum, I eventually had two guys named Chris clearly say that for believing this, I'm not saved and going to hell. Well, since I had a second wind and cooled down from being told I was going to hell, I thought I'd try to reignite my post. That didn't take long to burst into flames and apparently even the mod shutting the thread down thinks there's a difference between Christians and "universalists". That's extremely appalling to me. On forums, I know I can be a troublemaker at times. I'd like to think I'm the first person to obey the mods though. Here, since there's no person in charge to keep me in check, (since that's supposed to be me) I kinda have to bounce some things off you guys though to figure out if I'm actually participating in meaningful conversation, or if I'm just creating trouble... I'm sure anyone reading has already figured that out. I hope...
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 3, 2016 19:57:12 GMT -6
On forums, I know I can be a troublemaker at times. I'd like to think I'm the first person to obey the mods though. Here, since there's no person in charge to keep me in check, (since that's supposed to be me) I kinda have to bounce some things off you guys though to figure out if I'm actually participating in meaningful conversation, or if I'm just creating trouble... I'm sure anyone reading has already figured that out. I hope... Even though I disagree very, very strongly with the ideas themselves (universalism), I would definitely say you're presenting them in a civil/mature way. Discussion here has been very reasonable so far and hasn't descended into flame wars / name calling / logical fallacies, etc and that goes for the overall forum itself, not just this thread.
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Post by drawnsword on Oct 4, 2016 16:33:16 GMT -6
I think what your bringing up Thomas is actually worth looking into, some things might not appear to be saying what we have been taught before. Came across these quick vids, today very interesting to consider...
What About Hell?
Part 2 - Eternal Suffering?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 4, 2016 17:39:15 GMT -6
James... THANK. YOU.
That dude is saying the same things I am and I haven't even seen those!
See, I knew universalism was the "popular" view of hell in Christianity for centuries and that temples taught it... but I had no idea that the idea of an eternal hell didn't become the common view of hell until Rome grew in power!
In the documentary "Hellbound?", one of the preachers used an example of state and national borders in faith. As a Christian, there's state borders in the form of denominations - Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. and we as Christians shouldn't get stuck at state borders. The national borders would be like Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism and it makes sense if we have a hard stop at those borders.
The universalism aspect is a state border. There's no reason why Tom the universalist, Eric the eternal damnation-ist and Dave the annihilationist should be stuck to the point of fighting, or not be able to fellowship in common faith.
This is why what happened on the Sanctuary International pissed me off so much. They saw this as a national border and I need to go back to my universalist camp because there's no place for that crap at their Christian camp. UGH.
...but anyway, James, you totally made my day with this...
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Post by Kerrick on Oct 4, 2016 18:12:41 GMT -6
Dangit yesterday I had a nice and unintentionally thorough response [it was a busy day at work so I was trying to be brief haha] just about all ready to post and then I accidentally hit the 'back' button and lost it all... Ugh, so annoying. So now I shall try to re-type my thoughts from yesterday! [weights1] I looked at it like this. Say you go with a church group to a theme park and they pay for your ticket in. You refuse the gift, then find out that's where you needed to go... so now, you've got to pay to get through. I still think it really cheapens Christ's death if millions of people say "no thanks" leads them to infinite destruction. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad analogy, though you’re still saying that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough: that we save ourselves by paying for our sins. You mentioned the concept of His sacrifice being “cheapened” were everyone not saved. How does His sacrifice not being enough not cheapen it? Additionally, something we see throughout the whole Bible is that for whatever reason, God’s justice requires death for payment of sin. We tend to think of mercy being not getting what we deserve – which is true. But it’s not the full picture. God’s perfect justice necessitates that sins are paid for by death and in the Old Testament it meant the sacrifice of animals. Christ was the final sacrifice for our sins and so He had to die on the cross. That is the only way we can be cleansed. I see claiming of sins being paid for any other way as being quite counter to all that the Bible teaches. …that God WANTS all of mankind to be with him. Agreed. And this is something I don’t fully understand (though I’m sure many theologians have fleshed this out), but I do think there is a difference between what God wants and what happens. How can an all-knowing and all-powerful God not get what He wants? I’m not sure, but do you think God wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and bring death to the whole world? Or for all the tragedies, disasters, and evils that are going on right now in the world to happen? If you agree that those are not what God “wants” but agree that they are indeed happening… is it a stretch to believe that the same could go for His creation with regards to our salvation? Again, I don’t understand fully why this is, but I believe God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and that He is love. And I have experienced enough evil in this world to know it exists too. I think its safe to say that in this scenario, everyone who goes to hell forever, probably didn't understand the full implications of this decision. They probably also don't understand that failure to decide, has the same consequences as rejecting salvation. I think C.S. Lewis wrote about this in Mere Christianity. He wrote something to the effect of how to love someone (or God), we need to choose into it. And if God was so undeniably present (i.e. His face plastered in the sky and speaking directly to us for all to see and hear), we couldn’t choose into loving Him because we’d HAVE TO love Him. Therefore God very intentionally made it this way that He is so obviously real and present IF we pursue Him and very hidden IF we do not. The failure to understand the full implications of their decision is crucial to choosing to love God. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have a choice and what kind of love is forced? Why would a God who WANTS everyone to come to him (as savior of ALL people) let someone do that to themselves? I mean, if you saw your grown child about to accidentally dive headfirst into a firepit, would you just shrug and "Well, they made their choice" or would you be their "SAVIOR"? I think you’re imposing human moral/ethical standards onto God here. Our understanding of “love” is a good starting point to extrapolate what God’s love for us might be, but I do think we should be careful in molding our understandings of Him through how we experience love here on Earth. Now lets assume for a second that predestination is in, and God chooses who will be with Him in heaven because He's sovereign and He has all power, not us. As savior of ALL, why would God only want some (not all) people to be with Him? Passively watching someone die eternally doesn't sound very loving to ALL, especially when THOUGHTS/BELIEFS are the reason for damnation - so is God not really love? So the repentant murderer who spent 20 years in prison will enjoy paradise forever because he THOUGHT of Christ as savior and the moral accountant who has never been to prison but only THOUGHT of Christ as a decent ancient person will be tortured FOREVER? I don’t understand God or His concept of justice, but I trust He is perfect as is His justice. One thing that we’re not taking into consideration is the other characteristics of God such as His wrath, power, and justice. Additionally, I think we’re thinking about all this from OUR perspective – as if any of this is really about us. It is ALL about God and always was. God was, is, and always will be in perfect communion through the trinity. He didn’t need to create humanity so He’d have friends. He created us as a means to glorify Him. How does eternal punishment glorify Him? I’m still researching that but I think it goes back to what I mentioned above with regards to wrath and justice. As for the moral accountant and immoral murderer… again, I think you’re imposing human morals on God. There is no “moral” man. We ALL deserve death and [eternal] condemnation. If anyone is not for God, they are against Him. I don’t care how moral or “good” people are here on Earth, we ALL fall short of God and His glory. If Gandhi or Mother Theresa weren’t for Him, they were against Him. I don’t claim to know the state of their souls, but I do believe that if they rejected Christ, they are in hell. Also, I think it scares the hell out of Christians the thought that EVERYONE will get to glory. I think its an ego thing. Here we are, doing all this work to secure our place in heaven, and then some jerk who thinks its all a fairy tail gets in too? ...like that's more unfair than them burning forever? That is very valid and I think for many, you are probably right. However, if you accept the Calvinist perspective of predestination, this won’t play into it. There is NOTHING we can do to save ourselves. If it weren’t for Christ, we’d all be in hell. But God chose some [the elect] to spend eternity with Him. Not because they thought of anything, were holier than others, or by ANY accord of their own. Only by His grace and mercy did He choose to save some from an eternity in hell. So for the Calvinist, ego can’t come into play because they did absolutely nothing to have been chosen. To me, it makes infinitely more sense that God is Love, God is a SAVIOR, God WANTS everyone if you show up with your crowns and an atheist shows up with none. Burning someone FOREVER, ETERNALLY, INFINITELY because someone had 80 years to form a belief in their brain but didn't begs too many questions on what we know of God's wants, His love and his Power... God is love… but He is also wrath and justice and a handful of other characteristics too. Where do these come into play? Again, I think you’re looking at one aspect of Him but not the fullness (to best our human understanding). How can God be love AND wrath? That is a mystery to our feeble minds I think, but we do have to accept that He is both. Even though I disagree very, very strongly with the ideas themselves (universalism), I would definitely say you're presenting them in a civil/mature way. Discussion here has been very reasonable so far and hasn't descended into flame wars / name calling / logical fallacies, etc and that goes for the overall forum itself, not just this thread. Word. As for state/national borders... honestly, I am not quite sure which I believe. That is not so clear of a line for me. But it's time for me to go home to my wife now so adios for now!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 4, 2016 20:30:58 GMT -6
You mentioned the concept of His sacrifice being “cheapened” were everyone not saved. How does His sacrifice not being enough not cheapen it? Eternal hell cheapens Christ's death on earth because the sacrifice will be in vain for so many people. A temporary hell doesn't cheapen it one bit. Christ bled and died so Steve could be redeemed and go to heaven. Oops, except Steve didn't think that thing he was supposed to. Well, he's going into the firepit forever. Bye Steve. What was the point of Christ dying for Steve's sins then? Larger scale. Christ bled and died so millions of people could be redeemed and go to heaven. Oops, except millions of people didn't think that thing they were supposed to. Well, they're all going into the firepit FOREVER. So this ultimate sacrifice, best gift for mankind from GOD after 80 years has zero effect for millions of people... that's not very effective. If Jesus were a business operations manager with that level of failure for his "plan", he'd be fired by a contempt Asian lady. And this is something I don’t fully understand (though I’m sure many theologians have fleshed this out), but I do think there is a difference between what God wants and what happens. How can an all-knowing and all-powerful God not get what He wants? I’m not sure, but do you think God wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and bring death to the whole world? Or for all the tragedies, disasters, and evils that are going on right now in the world to happen? I see Adam and Eve's fall as something allowed because its still part of God's plan, therefore, His will. Tragedies, diseases, again allowed for as part of a plan for something better. Its PROVEN these things can actually strengthen a person. A desolate flaming eternity isn't a "plan" - its a scrapyard for failure. I simply don't believe God throws in the towel because someone didn't think that ONE thing they were supposed to their 80 conscious years on some space rock. Therefore God very intentionally made it this way that He is so obviously real and present IF we pursue Him and very hidden IF we do not. The failure to understand the full implications of their decision is crucial to choosing to love God. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have a choice and what kind of love is forced? Agree completely. Also, if God was in front of us, it would be impossible to have faith. I mean, there's no "mental leap" if He's tangible right there. I still don't see how failure to love, have faith equates ETERNAL damnation. Not eternal damnation, hell yeah... but for infinity? I'm not feeling it... He created us as a means to glorify Him. How does eternal punishment glorify Him? I’m still researching that but That's definitely the same logic that hit me in the face and made me opine what I've been talking about here. God is love… but He is also wrath and justice I have human emotions, so those are the only comprehension tools I have. Infinite torture because someone didn't BELIEVE SOMETHING in a finite amount of time isn't wrath or justice. That's flat out mother fluffin' overkill. That would be like if I were God, and my first wife was mankind. My wrath would be shit we fought over. My justice was taking something from her when she refused to contribute to paying for the divorce. Keeping her soul in a jar of sulfuric acid for eternity is BEYOND wrath or justice. ...I know, that's another strike against me for weighing God against human morals/emotions. Is God's love and wrath really that different from us? What, all these people will burn forever because God hates sin? Well then what the heck did his Son die for then? LOL ...what like burning a million years isn't enough to get the bad taste of sin out of His mouth? Its got to be FOREVER? As for state/national borders... honestly, I am not quite sure which I believe. That is not so clear of a line for me. Universalism is a state border. If we were at a national border here, you and I would have different faiths in different Gods... _________________________________________ Lets talk about a word for a second. The word "Savior" is defined by Webster as someone who SAVES something or someone from danger, harm, failure, etc. "Hey there's a firepit there. Hey you're getting to close. Oops you fell and its too late." is, I'm sorry, a pitiful example of a savior. Why wouldn't Christ save that person? He'd rather let them think it out themselves? But their best thinking got them to the firepit in the first place!
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 4, 2016 20:46:03 GMT -6
"Hey there's a firepit there. Hey you're getting to close. Oops you fell and its too late." is, I'm sorry, a pitiful example of a savior. Why wouldn't Christ save that person? He'd rather let them think it out themselves? But their best thinking got them to the firepit in the first place! God gives us so many chances in our lives to try and get us to turn away from Hell, which He wants no one to go to (Ezekiel 18:23, 18:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4). There are so many things, obvious and subtle, that God does for us every day and reaches out to people. So many, that we're posting on a forum that exists for the express purpose of talking about one specific style of Christian music, black metal. We might not even have one today - we originally had Blackened Hymns, then that was deleted, but now we have another one in its place. God is working in so many ways in our world. Everyone who ends up in Hell was sent there for a reason.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 4, 2016 21:10:29 GMT -6
I agree with you completely. Still, the hangup lies in that forever part about people in hell...
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