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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 26, 2015 20:55:30 GMT -6
Well, I've seen topics on homosexuality burst into flames on Christian forums - turning into an almost riot. (that's right, I said a "flaming" thread on homosexuality - you guys BETTER be laughing)
I think we're mature enough to discuss this. Anyone care to share their views?
My thoughts:
I do NOT think homosexuality is a choice - therefore, not a sin. First point - I'll use myself as an example - you guys can as well. Do you choose your sexuality? I certainly don't. Gay or straight, I don't know anyone who claims to.
I do not choose big butts (and I cannot lie), nice mammary equipment, long hair, smooth skin, etc. as what's sexually attractive to me. ....any more than I choose hairy bodies, sausages, deep voices, etc. as NOT being sexually attractive.
My brain subconsciously/automatically acts differently. I see a dude picking something up, without thinking, I'm looking at what he's grabbing off the ground. I see a woman picking something up, again without thinking, I'm looking at her southern anatomy. (whether I'm with her or not - though I don't stare because I'm a gentleman, not a creep. Just being honest that I still look.)
To me, the libido has to do with wiring, and people aren't wired the same.
Second point,
There's several verses calling homosexuality an "abomination". Without discrediting Leviticus for modern law, I'll also say that John Merrick was an abomination, not to his fault or sin.
Along with fornication and adultery, the sex action (sex, gay or straight, outside marriage) the bible says its "immoral". (which immoral is defined as "not conforming to accepted standards of morality" and morality is defined by good or bad behavior.)
I'm sure this is an unorthodox view, but I do not believe same sex couples who ARE married under law, are in fact "sinning".
Thoughts? Opinions?
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Post by Kerrick on Mar 27, 2015 10:04:03 GMT -6
I disagree... And here's why. By your logic, whatever is "natural" is ok and not sinful. It is my natural inclination to have sex with every beautiful woman I see. God wired me that way. So should I act on my "nature"? I certainly don't think so. I think we would all agree that sexual promiscuity is immoral and against God's will for His children. To quote Theocracy: A child in sweet duplicity For innocence? Or slavery to nature And the bents that haunt him straight out of the womb? He doesn’t have to learn the things unseemly that his instinct brings To carry like a burden from the cradle to the tomb You’ll never have to teach him how to lie If we are born in innocence, well, don’t you wonder why? For selfishness already dwells inside The birthright of Adam, the curse of the old manIt's probably best to save the "original sin" discussion for another thread, but regardless, I think we can all agree that some of our "natural" inclinations are sinful were we to act on them. I do NOT think having homosexual attractions are sinful (but instead a result of sin being in the world). Not long ago, our church did a series on love and part of it dealt with homosexuality. We had a lesbian woman come to speak. In her teenage years she realized she had attraction towards other women, despite her strict, conservative, Christian upbringing. She went to Bible-based pray-the-gay-out-of-you camps repeatedly but it never "worked." She is not heterosexual. However, she believes the way to living a moral, godly, Christian life means remaining celibate and not acting on her homosexual desires. It was a very enlightening sermon. It's difficult for her and it sucks. But that's life sometimes. There are many injustices in the world and it's quite unfair. Anyways, that's some of my thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 10:54:56 GMT -6
I'm a hundred present agree with you Kerrick. I had something similar in mind to write down. But you had already posted a good reply. I also think it is important to remember to hate the sin. Not the sinner. And don't judge people. Because we're all going to be judged one day.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 13:24:40 GMT -6
I agree with Kerrick too. Everywhere in the bible you can find examples, that the homosexual act (and NOT the "sexual preference") is sinful. You already mentioned Leviticus Thomas, but you can also find examples in the NEw Testament, for example Romans 1,27:"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.". But I think it's totally wrong to call homosexual people "abomination", we're supposed to even love our enemies, and calling someone things like that is clearly not showing love. I think it's important to try to show empathy and love and to not judge those people, they surely have to deal with this often enough, but to still make clear to them that having homosexual sex is a sin. And btw: I wonder if those people would also insult people having premarital sex like this, there is no difference, both is a sin. and Kerrick: " Day and Night, Jekyll and Hyde in the fairytale..." (I couldn't resist ^^)
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 27, 2015 14:14:11 GMT -6
I disagree... And here's why. By your logic, whatever is "natural" is ok and not sinful. It is my natural inclination to have sex with every beautiful woman I see. God wired me that way. So should I act on my "nature"? I certainly don't think so. I think we would all agree that sexual promiscuity is immoral and against God's will for His children. I would say everything natural is programming. Its what's done (or not done) with the programming that can be sin. Speaking of natural, in 1st Corinthians 11:14, Paul said it wasn't "natural" for men to have long hair... its a disgrace/dishonorable. One good example (of many actually) that show how even the new testament differs in culture. ...and how a man of God saying something is a "disgrace" does NOT mean that its a sin. ...and one of several references of how Paul is... well... what we would call a "homophobe" today. Not long ago, our church did a series on love and part of it dealt with homosexuality. We had a lesbian woman come to speak. In her teenage years she realized she had attraction towards other women, despite her strict, conservative, Christian upbringing. She went to Bible-based pray-the-gay-out-of-you camps repeatedly but it never "worked." She is not heterosexual. However, she believes the way to living a moral, godly, Christian life means remaining celibate and not acting on her homosexual desires. It was a very enlightening sermon. It's difficult for her and it sucks. But that's life sometimes. There are many injustices in the world and it's quite unfair. I think we both agree that homosexuality is not a choice - but the difference between our views is, they have no way to be sexually moral - based on their sexual disposition. I believe a marriage (yes, homosexual marriage) under God would allow them the same "rights" (again under God) as heterosexuals. You already mentioned Leviticus Thomas, but you can also find examples in the NEw Testament, for example Romans 1,27 I absolutely agree that the homosexual acts in Romans 1:27 were in error / sin because they weren't in the context of marriage. No different caliber of sin than heterosexual acts outside of marriage. The other two New Testament verses used by Christian to go against homosexuality are 1st Corinthians 6:9 and 1st Timothy 1:10. If you go to the original Greek of these verses, 1st Corinthians 6:9 uses the term Malakoi - which most modern interpretations of this word are "homosexual". 1st Timothy 1:10 uses the term Arsenokoitai - which most modern interpretations of this word are "men who have sex with men". However, the concept of "sexual orientation" didn't exist in the ancient world. Men having sex with men was ALWAYS associated with rampant lust and non-consensual sex. (look at Sodom where angels disguised themselves as men and the male residents there tried to force themselves on them) The correct translation of Malakoi is "licentious". (another word for promiscuous) Correct translation of Arsenokoitai is "Abusers of Themselves with Mankind". (that's a very broad definition)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 13:51:23 GMT -6
To say that homosexuality is not a sin is to say that looking at porn is not a sin. That said. the bible calls the act a sin the act is CALLED homosexuality and the bible calls it sin for a reason. Weather or not we should call it an abomination or not is not the question DDD as it is the bible that says that God calls it an abomination therefore it doesn't matter what mankind thinks of. I DO think it is a choice as many homosexuals were straight at one point in time and then switched teams so to speak. Anyway I look at it like this. What the bible says on it is good enough for me. Hate the sin not the sinner.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Apr 5, 2015 18:08:27 GMT -6
Larry, why would a homosexual choose to be gay? ...the persecution involved (from Christians and other gay haters) would deter ANYONE from that choice.
Would YOU choose to be gay? That will not sound appealing to a straight person - because it is not a choice.
If its not a choice, how can that "orientation" be a sin?
Could you imagine if everyone in the church, your family and community looks down on you because you (a man) have a sexual preference towards women? That's what it feels like for someone who's homosexual.
They can conform to society, or conform to their heart. They can't have both.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 18:25:00 GMT -6
I see your point but the bible calls it sin so that is what I go with. There are some that are theorizing that being gay is a form of demon possession. That would make sense but one way or another if God had it put in his word that it is a sin and that homosexuality will not enter heaven then who are we to disagree.
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