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Post by julienbakerfan on Oct 8, 2019 20:44:44 GMT -6
In terms of musical content, how do you think Christian metal stacks up compared to mainstream metal? Here's how I break it down by subgenre.
Black: Tie. Most mainstream black metal tends to be clustered in a few sub-subgenres--Wolves in the Throne Room-clones, Deafheaven-type "post-black," weird left-field bands like Abstract Void. Thus, I can't totally compare the two scenes because most of the "vanilla" black metal bands I listen to are from the Christian scene, and the mainstream bands I listen to are usually weirder and less trve kvlt. However, based on what I listen to from both scenes, there are quality releases on both sides. Instrumental metal: Mainstream wins. Angel Vivaldi, Animals as Leaders, Jeff Loomis, Intervals, etc. The Christian scene doesn't even come close on this one. Prog Metal: Mainstream wins again: Dream Theater, Between the Buried and Me, Tool, East of the Wall, TesseracT, etc. I don't know very many good prog bands from the Christian scene; a lot are bands of another subgenre with some slightly proggy elements. Pop Metal: Tie with Christian metal close to winning. P.O.D., Relent, Disciple, Demon Hunter, Spoken, GFM, and Falling Up are/were all great bands. Old-School Heavy Metal: Even leaving Black Sabbath out of the equation, the mainstream scene wins again. Not only do you have the classics like Judas Priest, Saxon, and Iron Maiden, but you also have newer bands like Dream Troll, Lord Weird Slough Feg, Hudu Akil (shout-out to my boys), and others. The only Christian band I can think of in this category is Wytch Hazel, though I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. Doom metal: Tie? I don't listen to this genre often, but Virgin Black is pretty good. Grindcore: Don't care. Thrash metal/Speed metal: Don't care. Hair Metal: Don't care. Power Metal: Don't care. Death Metal: Don't care. I like a few melodic death bands. Folk Metal: Tie? I don't know enough bands to make a judgment. Metalcore/Deathcore: Clear Christian metal victory here if we're defining "Christian band" very, very broadly. August Burns Red, Prada, Silent Planet, Impending Doom, Wolves at the Gate, Underoath (sort of), Norma Jean, Convictions, Phinehas, Wage War, and the list goes on and on.
What do y'all think?
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Post by Bartimaeus on Oct 9, 2019 8:04:38 GMT -6
Writhe is a grind project from a Christian and is probably some of the best grind I've ever heard. You should listen, I think the album is only 6 minutes long. Thrash: Secular is better and more progressive, but bands like Freakings, Exhortation and Ritual Servant (all on very opposite ends of the thrash spectrum) are very good, catching up with the Power Trip clones. Tourniquet is proggy thrash at it's best. If you are considering Christians in a band, Revulsed is some the best death metal I've heard for a while. I'm not as up with the secular scene here though. I have to LOL at the album comments on bandcamp as the lyrics, while cryptic, are clearly written from a Christian perspective. Folk Metal: Secular FTW I'm sure others would be able to speak more to some of the other genres. Great thread though.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 9, 2019 10:44:48 GMT -6
I don't listen to a ton of thrash. It does seem secular thrash has more experimentation / original ideas, but when it comes to traditional thrash and death/thrash, the few Christian bands there are/were seem to EXCEL. Very intense / angry music. - Godspeed- Escarna- Hating Evil- Tempest... and as Bartimaeus mentioned above, the EXCELLENT Ritual Servant. Also, I don't think Guerra Insana was "Christian" per se, but the vocalist/drummer is Christian. Incidentally, here's another Tempest song I want to share: Call to Evil. Thrash metal music, with fire-and-brimstone preaching as vocals. Extremely intense song, if not maybe a slight bit comical in just how over-the-top it is. Fun fact, their band photo is their vocalist standing in a forest, in front of an inverted cross that's been set on fire.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 10, 2019 16:09:57 GMT -6
I'm sorry to say, but IMO, secular is better for all of the above. I know "based on musical content" was meant to be regarding published music to date... But musical content that actually exists is certainly a variable. I would consider Antestor's "Return of the Black Death" to be one of the best black metal albums ever. I would consider Paramaecium's "Within the Ancient Forest" to be one of the best doom metal albums ever. Sure, score 2 points for Christians... But how much of a win is it really when I've got to dip into the 90s for "better?" A realistic comparison is probably going to be 1 Christian album for every 1000 secular albums, if not more... There's several reasons why Orationem came into existence. One of which is because I was unsatisfied with the lack of Christian black metal, also in the style I prefer... I can count on one hand the Christian black metal bands that offer the full-speed, real-drums, limited-synth, full-albums that I really like - and this is for "of all time". I can count on one hand the secular black metal bands that offer the full-speed, real-drums, limited-synth, full-albums that I really like - and this is just for releases publishing in October 2019. I understand how personal sentiment can trump heretic lyrics and a much larger library... I wish it were more this way for me, but it just isn't. Besides, I've been waiting... And will continue to wait... For one day when any genre of metal INCLUDES Christian bands, instead of being a separate list that's compared to non-Christian releases.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 10, 2019 18:16:37 GMT -6
I understand how personal sentiment can trump heretic lyrics and a much larger library... I wish it were more this way for me, but it just isn't. I genuinely prefer Christian black metal to most secular black, ... but I'm probably in a minority on that, since it seems a lot of people don't have the same taste I do. Most of the secular black I listened to was underground music the scene at large never cared about in the first place. I often found that most of the popular black metal out there sucked.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 10, 2019 18:54:53 GMT -6
You or anyone is welcome to like Christian black metal better. Ita true I like the secular better, but it's also true that I wish my preference was more like yours. Secular black metal has influenced the Christian black metal I write though.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 10, 2019 19:20:15 GMT -6
I'm curious, how much would you say secular black metal influences you? (Not just "how much" compared to Christian metal, but compared to any genre with any ideology.) I can see how the actual, literal playing style of Orationem would be influenced by secular black (blast beats, the riffs you play), but the atmosphere of Orationem is so different from most black metal I've ever heard (secular or Christian), and I'm always at a loss, as to how you get that sound after taking influence from music without that atmosphere.
I actually think the only music I've ever heard with an atmosphere like Orationem's was certain electronic/ambient music. Maybe a small handful of atmospheric black metal songs.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Oct 11, 2019 11:15:49 GMT -6
I'm sorry to say, but IMO, secular is better for all of the above. I know "based on musical content" was meant to be regarding published music to date... But musical content that actually exists is certainly a variable. I would consider Antestor's "Return of the Black Death" to be one of the best black metal albums ever. I would consider Paramaecium's "Within the Ancient Forest" to be one of the best doom metal albums ever. Sure, score 2 points for Christians... But how much of a win is it really when I've got to dip into the 90s for "better?" A realistic comparison is probably going to be 1 Christian album for every 1000 secular albums, if not more... This is how I feel about every genre except metal. Metal is the only genre where I listen to a preponderance of Christian artists, mainly because there are so many good ones. There is no Christian rock-and-roll band that comes close to being as good as Kansas, Boston, and Led Zep, or Sheer Mag, White Reaper, and the Black Keys. Not one. Larry Norman is good, but So Long Ago, The Garden is no Leftoverture. Christian punk? Most of it sounds dull and lifeless. This is not what I want from a punk band. Christian new wave/post-punk/jangly guitar stuff? Fugetaboutit. There's the Altar Boys, who sound like B-grade R.E.M. with on-the-nose lyrics. Which is fine, except R.E.M. already exists and they have cryptic, interesting lyrics. Nothing like the Smiths, the Cure, Psychedelic Furs. Christian indie? Most Christian artists in the indie scene don't identify as such. Sufjan Stevens is probably the biggest Christian in the scene, and he's always resisted the "Christian music" label. So you never know if you're listening to a Christian indie artist or not. Christian emo? Unless you can find some Tooth-and-Nail band from the 00s that played this, or make a (flawed) argument for mewithoutYou being a Christian band, this doesn't exist. Well, there's Shmunks for You, but they weren't that great. And don't even get me started on the cheesy lyrics of 99% of self-described Christian music. Lyrics are a huge part of music for me. So many lyrics in the Christian scene are corny and on-the-nose (because writing obvious lyrics = "being bold in your faith", I guess). I got so tired of there being no music with interesting lyrics from a Christian point-of-view that I decided to write my own. But, like the many Christian indie artists, I don't identify my stuff as "Christian music," mainly because I don't want to start any fake "controversy" over my lyrics, etc.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 11, 2019 11:29:20 GMT -6
the atmosphere of Orationem is so different from most black metal I've ever heard (secular or Christian), and I'm always at a loss, as to how you get that sound after taking influence from music without that atmosphere. Thank you! If I was being interviewed for Orationem, and I was asked what bands influenced the Orationem sound, I'd say Der Weg Einer Freiheit Dark Funeral 1349 Carach Angren Belphegor Devourment The "ideologies" of those bands means nothing to me - I'd probably "guess" wrong if I "guessed" what they were. I'm only associating "influence" with their song structure and their sound. I'd laugh if hypothetical-interviewer said "What? I thought for sure you would have said Deathspell Omega." - I've heard that before, multiple times, even though I never really listened to any DSO music. (The guy from Renascent told me he thought Orationem was the Christian alternative for Deathspell Omega fans - and he meant that as a compliment. I would have said a Christian alternative to Der Weg Einer Freiheit, if only because I listen to them and they're one of my favorites) Its fair to say that list is in order, in regards to what Orationem sounds more like, but also - meshing the sound of those bands together doesn't make the Orationem sound either. I think what helps the Orationem atmosphere - years ago, I was fluent on piano before I was fluent on guitar and drums. Perhaps there's something to that. Also, the minimalist approach to recording/production adds to it. I think my music would sound less-unique if it was as well produced as Marduk or Belphegor albums. The custom tuning of my guitar probably adds to it. Different tuning = different chords different chords = different melodies different melodies = a different sound Perhaps God's ability He gave me is the a factor to the sound as well. For years I've laid out the structure of songs with the drums, having no idea what the guitars would be. I'd "write" guitars playing along with the recorded drums, and the riffs would just come to me. (I'd "find" them on the guitar fret-board, then record them)
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 11, 2019 11:51:41 GMT -6
But, like the many Christian indie artists, I don't identify my stuff as "Christian music," mainly because I don't want to start any fake "controversy" over my lyrics, etc. I can't comment on the Christian indie music scene, that very well may work great... but I've encountered some fans in Christian metal, that would consider not identifying as Christian music, when the lyrics appear Christian, is in itself, controversial. I personally don't hold a "go bold or go home" stance regarding Christian lyrics. For me, "Christian music" has such a personal subjectivity, what its called, what its known as, what it's intended to be - means very little. Sure, my own Christian music has a pretty high JPM - but there's more to that being there than just to convince people that it's Christian. This is how I feel about every genre except metal. Metal is the only genre where I listen to a preponderance of Christian artists, mainly because there are so many good ones. Ah, this makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for clarifying!
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Post by avjr on Oct 11, 2019 15:03:46 GMT -6
Christian punk? Most of it sounds dull and lifeless. This is not what I want from a punk band. What!? Most of the Christian Punk bands I listened to are good! False Idle, uniSEF, The Hoax, Metanoia, Metamorffosis, Cross-Check, Doulos, UntilWeDie!, Headnoise, Officer Negative, Parental Petulance, Grave Robber, The B-Listers, Reliance, Outer Circle, The Kings Kids, Unshackled, Flatfoot 56, Pleading Guilty, Heart Like War. Thumper Punk Records has so much good Christian Punk music. I supported that label for a long time. Also, I gone to their Thumper Punk Records Night shows, and the bands deliver sick performances. Too bad there wasn't one this year.
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Post by sonofnun on Jun 12, 2020 22:31:52 GMT -6
I stopped listening to most secular metal over 10 years ago so I'm not really current. Before that I was very heavily invested in the scene as a reviewer. I would have never imagined back then that the Christian metal scene would have the breadth and depth that it does. I had only ever heard of Stryper back then and assumed that there were only a handful of cheesy, knock-off "white metal" bands. However, I've now been obsessively researching Christian bands and listening for 3 years and I'm still uncovering many new, quality Christian metal bands every day.
I listen to black metal the most and then thrash, death, and heavy metal. I'd say that in all of these sub-genres, except maybe death metal, there exists many high quality Christian bands that are on a par or better than the stuff I enjoyed listening to when I was deeply into the secular scene.
I'm not sure how secular black metal has evolved, but I think I've found more Christian black metal projects that I enjoy than I ever did back then. I'm rather partial to symphonic and atmospheric black metal and these areas seem to be particular strong suits in the Christian scene so it's been a natural fit for me.
I also think there is a lot of depth in Christian Thrash and I've found bands stretching from the 80s to today that are so good that they have actually elevated that sub-genre to my second favorite. I've also come to appreciate traditional heavy metal more as a Christian and found quality content there from Saint to Diviner.
I think one area that I need to continue to explore is Christian death metal which for some reason seems much more sparse to me. I'm also a little pickier about this sub-genre (and I was primarily a death metal fan for most of my time in the secular scene). I'm not much of a fan of -core or slam which seem to be pretty popular things with Christian bands. I'm even a little bored now with a lot of brutal death metal. I prefer Old School death metal that is more groovy and mid-paced. There are some good Christian bands in this category like Deracination, Hearken, and Pale Horse. I recently ran across Implement which sounded a lot like Blood Red Throne (one of my former favorites).
A lot of this, of course, is just my opinion and not really objective at all. My only goal is to find enough Christian metal of the varieties that I enjoy to satisfy me. I would never be comfortable enough with the messages in the secular scene to listen to enough bands to be well-informed about what is going on over there. All I know is that, for me, the Christian scene has a surprising breadth and depth that has been very satisfactory to me and propelled me to become more deeply involved in exploring this scene than I probably was in the secular scene.
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Post by Borndead on Jun 13, 2020 11:49:48 GMT -6
I wouldn say that core genres are for sure dominated by Christian bands. Other then that it´s on a band to band kind of basis. I have to admit; I mainly listen to secular bands, especially when it comes to black metal. But then again, we have stuff like Wovenhand, Virgin Black, Johnny Cash, Megadeth, Lycia etc. The secular scene has a big advantage and it´s, the nummber of people that make music but if you check the amount of christian musicians that make quality music, we might have the procentual advantage. In the end it´s all very subjective.
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