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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 28, 2021 14:39:24 GMT -6
I'd say this is something that's dawned on me this new year... how I actually have very little sense of "Christian metal community" elsewhere besides our little forum home here with you fine folks still here, and chatting with Duane from Vision of God. This isn't about any specific bands/releases or lack thereof - what I'm talking about boils down to actual people making actual conversation.
I could play some dumb game on my phone, and like it enough that I join a community for it... and in little to no time at all, I can make friends, laugh at each other's jokes, and even connect some on a personal level. Not just one game but multiple games, I end up chatting with several people, and in 1 week from starting talking to each other, we all know which states we're all in, we know what each other's jobs are, married or single and family shenanigans are talked about, and all around - its friendly and engaging conversations with common interest stemming from the game(s) we all enjoy.
Meanwhile Christian metal, its like mostly... faux engagement. Try to talk about bands, people either never say anything at all, or just upvote or like (which is still not saying anything) Try to ask questions about bands, and the same people offer the same recommendations each time with almost botlike behavior. (I'd seen on Reddit where someone would ask "Is there a Christian band that sounds like *A*?" and someone would reply, "Have you tried Horde? Antestor? Sletchvalk? Frosthardr? Divine Symphony?". Later, someone would ask "Is there a Christian band that sounds like *B*?" and someone would reply, "Have you tried Horde? Antestor? Sletchvalk? Frosthardr? Divine Symphony?".)
The only time I've seen people come out of the woodwork on behalf of engaging conversation is when someone makes a theological statement or asks a theological question, and then a group fight breaks out.
This year, on behalf of engagement, I tried to reach out (send an email) to a few (a modest number of) other projects as Tom from Orationem. Nothing heavy or more than a paragraph or 2, just "you do Christian metal, so do I", "I like your music", "Thanks for doing what you do.". Two different emails were to people I'd been in contact years ago and we chatted up a storm then, and there was an added "I hope life's treating you well", "feel free to reach out anytime".
...aaaaaaaaaaaaand nothing. Absolutely nothing. The epitome of a ghost town.
Do people in Christian metal only know me online as a troll bigot scumbag leper loser? I shouldn't be able to connect so easily with people over some dumb game if I were the universal online problem here... I think. Do people list an email as a method of contact, but then don't check it ever because they think there's already no engagement and there never will be? Maybe. Is there an abundance of Christian metal conversations on Facebook or Twitter but I'm missing out because I refuse to sign up for the services from woke technology overlords that have more power than any nation's government? Maybe. Is there something fishy about contact AT orationem DOT com that their email accounts immediately junk or spam them? Maybe sometimes? ...but every email each to different domain names? That's doubtful to me. Are people just so busy they only have time to read 2 paragraphs (or not) but never time to reply? Well, it can just take a few minutes to type out a few sentences, and if they're not going to reply after a month has passed, they're probably not going to reply. Do people in Christian metal only want to release their music, but don't really care about actually TALKING to anyone? Jeez, I hope not. - but gut feelings galore on that one.
Bottom line, I really don't think the problem with "the Christian metal scene" is due to lack of (new) releases. I mean, if some people chime in at all, they seem content chiming in about the same pile of releases that have been around for 20 or more years.
My tolerance for doing CPR to dying communities is getting lower and lower by the minute. I've lost count on how many Christian metal Discords I've left on top of the 2 I started and then left. (same thing happens every time - piles of people join, piles of people lurk, and the only things said are every 2-3 days, people talking AT other people, instead of talking TO other people. ie: Person A - "Hey check out this band!", Person B - "Hey check out this other band!", and the thread continues like that.)
Communities die when people stop talking, and I don't know what else to do. I've just about lost all hope that anything CAN be done.
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Post by _ on Feb 28, 2021 17:21:42 GMT -6
*hesitantly clicks 'like' without responding*
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Post by julienbakerfan on Feb 28, 2021 17:35:11 GMT -6
(I'd seen on Reddit where someone would ask "Is there a Christian band that sounds like *A*?" and someone would reply, "Have you tried Horde? Antestor? Sletchvalk? Frosthardr? Divine Symphony?". On Christian Metal Facebook, you get at least one of a set of responses when asking for a recommendation. A) Someone criticizes you for asking for a recommendation at all B) Someone tells you to just listen to the original band C) Someone tells you the original band is a Christian band--I've seen multiple instances of people claiming that Black Sabbath is a Christian band, for instance, D) Someone recommends a band that doesn't sound anything like what you were looking for: "You want thrash metal? Check out Stryper and Horde." I did think that people responding "Demon Hunter" to everything was funny, but then people started taking it too seriously. The only time I've seen people come out of the woodwork on behalf of engaging conversation is when someone makes a theological statement or asks a theological question, and then a group fight breaks out A new release will get maybe 1-2 comments; a theological post will become a massive thread of essays. Problem here is moderation: theological posts need to be completely banned or put in a different group. I've lost count on how many Christian metal Discords I've left on top of the 2 I started and then left. I liked the hard and heavy discord you started, but mainly so I could share stomachache stories. Nothing will bring people together like stomach problems. I've pretty much sworn off Christian Metal Facebook--in fact, the culture of Christian Metal Facebook is one of the reasons I deleted my main account. I follow about four music groups on my backup, none of which are Christian groups. The last straw was when some guy in a group started complaining about a photo of a crossed-out swastika and defending NSBM...and the mods did nothing about it. In general, it seemed like Christian Metal Facebook attracted a lot of people who are...in need of pastoral guidance--my favorite example of this being the guy who told me that Starbucks was satanic (I worked there for a little while--no satanism detected) and that mermaids were real. There was also a lot of self-righteousness and legalism, which I would not have really expected. I would have thought that Christian metalheads would be a little more open-minded, as opposed to "fundamentalists who are somehow OK with metal." I suppose this may be a selection thing--probably the more chill and balanced people are not spending their time writing essays on the internet. Facebook moderation issue: posts that are just videos don't tend to generate discussion unless they have a clickbaity title. A lot of CMFB posts were just band videos with no text, no description. Mods also tended to have no policy for self-promotion, which led to all kinds to trolly/spammy behavior. "You like Horde? Check out my skatepunk band." Every third post was something about GFM (I'm kidding, GFM is cool). Overall structural problems with the fandom: There's a smaller number of bands and a limited amount of variety compared to any comparable secular scene. You're lucky if you can find one band that plays in a style you like; even luckier if they're actually good. The bands tend to be clustered around certain genres, especially black metal (one-man projects make this easy), metalcore/deathcore, and maybe power metal. Entire trends, like the whole hipster sludge metal thing (think Boris, Thou, Primitive Man, maybe Neurosis) and the New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal, have completely passed the Christian scene by. This all means that you may not have a lot to talk about with fellow Christian metalheads. Live music was on the decline even before COVID, and it's harder to generate community on the internet alone. if some people chime in at all, they seem content chiming in about the same pile of releases that have been around for 20 or more years. To be fair, this is an issue with the Steve Hoffman Forums (the only other place online where you can find me with this username)--every third post is about the Beatles, The Stones, the Monkees, or Zeppelin. There are, however, a lot of interesting threads on there, perhaps due to the larger userbase. Similarly, I stopped using r/metal because people on there were gatekeeping so hard, and not even in regards to metal! I recall one discussion in the recommendations thread where someone asked for stuff that was "emo, like MCR, but with metal." I replied that they might like Bullet For My Valentine, because they sound kind of like metal mixed with "emo." A third redditor jumps into the conversation to type an essay about how I have everything wrong, MCR isn't really "emo," etc. On another occasion, a person asked for recommendations and listed several songs that weren't strictly metal. I told them they might like the music in r/posthardcore, because it's kind of a mix of everything heavy that doesn't fit into a specific genre. Random redditor jumps in with a tirade about the definition of "post-hardcore," and how I have everything wrong. Overall, though, I found the overall culture of r/metal less toxic than Christian Metal Facebook--even the Christian metal posts (e.g. Antestor) were handled respectfully. I could never get into the Christian metal discord where everyone had an anime profile picture.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 1, 2021 14:07:17 GMT -6
A new release will get maybe 1-2 comments; a theological post will become a massive thread of essays. There was also a lot of self-righteousness and legalism, which I would not have really expected. I would have thought that Christian metalheads would be a little more open-minded, as opposed to "fundamentalists who are somehow OK with metal." I suppose this may be a selection thing--probably the more chill and balanced people are not spending their time writing essays on the internet. I dunno bro, it kind of sounds like some Christians can "talk" (to put forth theological essays). ...but I've seen some of what you said too, and it concerns me. Like for Christians in metal, talking is mostly reserved for being right about something, very little on behalf of "general friendliness". On Christian Metal Facebook, you get at least one of a set of responses when asking for a recommendation. A) Someone criticizes you for asking for a recommendation at all B) Someone tells you to just listen to the original band C) Someone tells you the original band is a Christian band--I've seen multiple instances of people claiming that Black Sabbath is a Christian band, for instance, D) Someone recommends a band that doesn't sound anything like what you were looking for: "You want thrash metal? Check out Stryper and Horde." I did think that people responding "Demon Hunter" to everything was funny, but then people started taking it too seriously. As annoying as that sounds, I still would consider that to be a step up from just perpetual dead silence. LOL I think more than anything, its not about conversations about bands or music in particular.... its just the total absence of small-talk, off topic talk or just general friendly conversation that stands out to me, not to mention the eagerness to fight? Me on multiple different game chats: This boss is ridiculous. Someone else 1: That boss is ridiculous Someone else 1: Sorry for the lag, weather is crazy Someone else 2: Weather here is good, where are you? Someone else 1: Detroit, MI Someone else 3: Hey my kids went to school in Detroit 1 and 3: *continue talking about kids saying the darn'dest things* Me and 2: *continue talking about crazy game bosses and weather and music and our jobs* Everyone else (cont'): continuous friendly conversation about the game and life Me on multiple different Christian music chats: Skald In Veum is one of the Christian extreme metal front runners! Person 1-4: "A band that has song names like "Eden Raped" or "Goatwhore" is not a Christian band." Me a week later: Anyway, so how's everyone doing today? Person 5-10: *doesn't read or reply. Spends their life chopping wood behind a cabin. Last posts were "Stryper is the only Christian band" 6 months ago* Person 11-15: *doesn't reply. Clutches their Mortification CDs hoping that reading "Skald In Veum" isn't some sort of evil internet spell casting* Me another week later: What are some of you guys favorite Christian metal bands? Person 16: "Guys!?!!? STOP USING GENDERED LANGUAGE!!!!!!!!!" Person 17-21: *replies yelling at the other person for being a gender unicorn* Person 22: *quotes scripture on loving everyone* Persons 22-30 *start fighting about theology and gender. I log out and probably in total desperation to connect with people in Christian metal, will most likely be back to experience something similar at all these locations again.*
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Mar 3, 2021 13:00:31 GMT -6
Gaming is a more casual hobby, and if I had to guess, most of these people probably see ideologically-driven music as more of a "job" or "responsibility". Also, most gaming communities have limits to how much controversial discussion can happen. Nobody wants to play a mulitplayer game if the community is too toxic, and politics and religion are very hot-button issues. In black metal, Christian or secular, you're not going to avoid those topics, it's completely impossible. Can't even click on a random Metal Archives band without being blasted with White Wolf Aryan Radical Nordic Swastika Jew-Hating Europe Division 1488 Hitler Israel Zion Holocaust *Farts*
Also keep in mind that a game's community is about appreciating somebody else's art, whereas with music, everyone is peddling their own art. Which probably helps explain why Facebook pages for specific bands tend to be fine, but Facebook groups are garbage. Also there is a big "community" for Christian metal on Facebook, but it sucks, like ALL of Facebook and its "communities". Avoid like the plague.
Overall though -- it's hard to say. I've made friends in this community, no doubt about it, but I don't really... go out of my way to make friends. Here or anywhere else in life. Doing some research, I really doubt I'm a proper sociopath, but I do have a few undeniably antisocial traits. And the black metal community overall seems to attract a lot of loners, non-social people, antisocial people, "backwards" people, etc, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that a majority of extreme metalheads in the Christian scene were... well, trying not to be like that, but were still like that. I'm one such case after all.
In one sense it's kind of frustrating following a life path and not really having much camaraderie along the way. Then again, I didn't have much camaraderie on the path I used to follow, either. Even other people who had the same core beliefs I did, always believed differently than me, to the point I never really fit in with them anyway. It's frustrating, but at the end of the day, all of this was, and is, about a path to finding God, not about finding friends. If I make any, it's a nice side effect, but not the main point of what I do.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Mar 4, 2021 18:35:57 GMT -6
most of these people probably see ideologically-driven music as more of a "job" or "responsibility". I don't know about that. Christian metal is pretty much entertainment to me--entertainment that aligns with my values, but still entertainment--and I can't be the only one? Can I? And even people who come together to talk shop about their jobs still shoot the breeze about other topics. Can't even click on a random Metal Archives band without being blasted with White Wolf Aryan Radical Nordic Swastika Jew-Hating Europe Division 1488 Hitler Israel Zion Holocaust *Facts* FTFY. "This is our next song about how Jews are inferior to the white race, yet are somehow ruling the world behind the scenes." Meanwhile, over in r/rabm: "Guys, I think the band Kriegsturmkampf88 might be a little sketch, they played at a festival with Graveland and Marduk, but I really like their album "White Wolf Aryan Radical Nordic Swastika Jew-Hating Europe Division 1488 Hitler Israel Zion Holocaust." Any recommendations?" Also there is a big "community" for Christian metal on Facebook, but it sucks, like ALL of Facebook and its "communities" Facebook communities are only as good as their moderation, and unless you tightly moderate a community with a tendency toward toxic topics, the entire community becomes toxic. Also, I think Facebook attracts very passive users who don't comment or post discussion starters (as opposed to Discord, Reddit, or forums). I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that a majority of extreme metalheads in the Christian scene were... well, trying not to be like that, but were still like that. I haven't quite noticed that, but I've noticed a lot of "baby Christians" who seemed to be in dire need of guidance from more experienced Christians, and quite a few people who seemed to be...struggling with untreated or undiagnosed mental illness (don't mean this in a mean or rude way, as I've had periods in my life where I've dealt with this). I wonder if the reason why people don't want to have casual convos in online Christian metal spaces is because the toxicity drove all the chill people away or made them stop engaging. That's what happened to me.
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Post by avjr on Mar 4, 2021 20:20:53 GMT -6
I've seen arguments on YouTube comments for more than 10 years. Same thing. I pray healing on the Christian Metal scene.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Mar 5, 2021 13:15:45 GMT -6
I've seen arguments on YouTube comments for more than 10 years. Does this mean that for the 10 years you've been looking at YouTube you've seen arguments in the comments? Or that you've seen an argument in the comments that lasted 10 years!
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Post by avjr on Mar 5, 2021 16:24:02 GMT -6
I've seen arguments on YouTube comments for more than 10 years. Does this mean that for the 10 years you've been looking at YouTube you've seen arguments in the comments? Or that you've seen an argument in the comments that lasted 10 years! Arguments in the comments. My apology if I didn’t specify.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 6, 2021 14:25:24 GMT -6
Gaming is a more casual hobby, and if I had to guess, most of these people probably see ideologically-driven music as more of a "job" or "responsibility". I drew a similar conclusion, but the difference would be that any game discussion is almost always "no-strings-attached", meanwhile Christian metal discussion revolves around standing for something, standing against something, or mouth is closed. Its like saying "Hi! How are you?" warrants a "Good, u?" in game chat, but Christian metal chat warrants a glare and silence, since the receiver doesn't know why someone would even say "hi" to them - which is pretty frickin' sad when I think about it. Also keep in mind that a game's community is about appreciating somebody else's art, whereas with music, everyone is peddling their own art. Which probably helps explain why Facebook pages for specific bands tend to be fine, but Facebook groups are garbage. Also there is a big "community" for Christian metal on Facebook, but it sucks, like ALL of Facebook and its "communities". Avoid like the plague. Again similar to Discord and Reddit IMO. I could message 5 people individually and there's good conversation and it feels normal, but those same 5 people on the same server/sub, its like nobody ever communicates the same way...
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