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Post by drawnsword on Jan 26, 2018 4:59:51 GMT -6
Richard Jacobson, author of Unchurching: Christianity Without Churchianity, was invited to Grace Community Church in Grafton, Ohio on November 19th, 2017 to speak with their congregation about unchurching. You can read Richard Jacobson's comic online for free www.unchurching.com/comic Share your thoughts if you check these both?
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Post by exo on Jan 27, 2018 1:10:07 GMT -6
Have not watched...but.....
I have DEEP spiritual roots in Christianity. I was raised in Church since birth (Baptist denomination), 3 services a week until I moved out of my parent's house, married the daughter of an ordained minister (different denomination, but still....), my own family other than myself has "gone to church" for the last 22+ years.....I believe with all my heart, that I am utterly reliant on Christ's grace and mercy lest I be damned. Romans 3:23 tells the story.
I DETEST "the church".
I watched how my mother was treated when she had health issues when I was ~15, never you mind the sheer effort it took for her to drag herself out of bed every Sunday to teach the "3rd/4th grade" Sunday School class.....but it wasn't good enough, because she somehow wasn't setting the "right" example by also attending the main service, nevermind that she literally exhausted herself to the point she'd be bedridden for two days after the fact.
same timeframe, I'd catch a load of crap about my love of heavy metal, the single earring in my left ear, and the fact that I'd let my hair grow well past my collar before I bothered to get it cut. It was the 80's......if you grew up then, you know what I'm talking about....:
Despite all that, I LOVE my youth pastor from that timeframe. Don't know how he'd feel about me these days, with my hair in excess of 2 feet in length, and my (gasp!) 4 ear piercings......and I don't REALLY care.....but the teachings I got from him are somehow fundamental to my existence, ESPECIALLY the advice "make sure the person you marry is your best friend". I really can't over-rate EXACTLY the influence one Kevin Corlew had on who "I" am these days....and how I raise my kids.
But I have SCARS from dealing with "The Church" during my formative years........and if I sound bitter about it, well, I am. I haven't really darkened the doors of an actual church building other than major Holidays for a decade, and if I'm to be truly honest, the fact I worke 3rds is a little more than a convenient excuse.
We need to do SUCH a better job representing not necessarily Christ, but His Redemption, and what it means than we do.....and not just to those that don't attend.
If "unChurching" means doing that, I am ALL for it.
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Post by _ on Jan 27, 2018 5:31:39 GMT -6
exo thanks for sharing, bro.
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Post by lefo on Feb 25, 2018 13:26:53 GMT -6
Matthew 16:18 - "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."
Everyone who would deny the Church is denying Jesus. There is no such thing as christianity w/o the Chutch. Im also finding plenty of christians who modeled their own Jesus that suits their needs. If Jesus decided to establish His Church, who are we to think we know better. Also denying the Church is almost immediatelly denying His Mother, because she is the Church, and thats because Jesus wanted her to be that. God wanted to provide us thru his Church as a community because God him self is the ultimate community. So everyone has those good deeds under his/her belt. God is the Church.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 25, 2018 14:33:42 GMT -6
How did I miss these posts? I'm not here enough. But I have SCARS from dealing with "The Church" I haven't really darkened the doors of an actual church building other than major Holidays for a decade I was raised in Church since birth (Baptist denomination) I didn't realize we had these similarities bro. Matthew 16:18 - "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church." Everyone who would deny the Church is denying Jesus. Jesus is not His bride.... and the verse you quoted is Jesus talking to Peter. I think the church is quite crucial to Christianity, as outlined in scripture.... but I would argue that these corporate buildings full of suits, man-made dogmas, revolving around finances, etc. is even really church at all.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 25, 2018 15:49:39 GMT -6
Also denying the Church is almost immediatelly denying His Mother, because she is the Church, and thats because Jesus wanted her to be that Most of your points are exclusive to Catholic interpretation. Which I respect [though disagree with, greatly] but this ^ quote confuses me. As you, yourself, said, the church is: God (Holy Trinity), and a community of people. If one denies the church -- even the Catholic church -- how is it denying Mary? Mary isn't "God and a community of people" (ie, "the church"), so this seems self-contradictory.
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Post by lefo on Feb 25, 2018 16:57:40 GMT -6
Matthew 16:18 - "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church." Everyone who would deny the Church is denying Jesus. Jesus is not His bride.... and the verse you quoted is Jesus talking to Peter. I think the church is quite crucial to Christianity, as outlined in scripture.... but I would argue that these corporate buildings full of suits, man-made dogmas, revolving around finances, etc. is even really church at all. I quotted Matthew 16:18 because i just wanted to tell by it that man is not fit to decide if the church is important or this or that. She was established by our Lord and if he did it, that means its super important and necessery for our salvation. Church is the provision for us all. This world belongs to the Church and was created for Her as some theologian once said. We as ppl are sinfull and weak yet the Church is holy and perfect because God is keeping it that way by giving us His truth in teachings. This is super important. Thats because we have to see that beacon of light. One Truth. Not 10 000. W/o the truth we are lost in so many interpretations. Peter alerted us in his letter of this. Also Jesus prayed to His Father....Father, let them be one as we are One. Many of those christian churches are not one at all, but all of them will tell you the Holy Spirit leads them. Jesus is not His bride, yet He is the Church, because w/o Him there is no Church. And still the Church is His Mother because She breeds Him in us individuals. We are His mother, because we breed Jesus in us spiritualy, by the reborn in Christ. He is born in us as well as we in Him. Church brings us to Jesus, as does His Mother doing the same thing by interceding for us and providing for us. Praying for us. Helping us. She is w/o sin because she is the Church. - One Truth, not many. A tabernacle. All by Gods doing because of us all.
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Post by lefo on Feb 25, 2018 17:34:58 GMT -6
Also denying the Church is almost immediatelly denying His Mother, because she is the Church, and thats because Jesus wanted her to be that Most of your points are exclusive to Catholic interpretation. Which I respect [though disagree with, greatly] but this ^ quote confuses me. As you, yourself, said, the church is: God (Holy Trinity), and a community of people. If one denies the church -- even the Catholic church -- how is it denying Mary? Mary isn't "God and a community of people" (ie, "the church"), so this seems self-contradictory. Nocturnal, you are a cool guy, i like that you didnt cut me off because of my faith, but you rather asked. Thats great. First of all, Mary is definitely not a God. She is just a human like us, a saint in Heaven, who pleads for us all. She was given her "job" by her Son. She is a "project" that God created for us, but for a very specific reason. God made her His human mother, yet He also after her death made her the Church she is (mystically and also realy, as she is His real mother, but so is the Church that breeds Him in us and provides for Him in us). She was concieved w/o sin as to be a sinless person and died without sins so she could be an appropriate tabernacle for our Lord. By His redeeming death she could be made that way even before the act of redemption, retrospectively. Why ? Because God is mercifull. She is w/o sin and holy, because the Church is herself like that. Church must be holy as i wrote earlier, because She has to provide us with perfect Truth and Himself in the Eucharist, that is our Lord. What im talking here is in many ways mystical stuff. Theology. I shouldnt be telling you all these things, because you probably cant understand it all and it can heavily confuse you, but i did it anyways because im like that lol. Mary is quite hard to comprehend even for many catholics. I recoment asking God in prayer to give you better understanding of her. He will do it, trust me.
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Post by Borndead on Feb 26, 2018 18:18:09 GMT -6
Todays "church"(organisation) is quite stagnant, desperatly holding onto outdated traditions that we all know have no significant advantage to us. Todays churchianity is filled with sermons that preach to the choir insted of strenghtening and developing the church. The church are and always have been the believers in Jesus Christ Matthew 18:20. We just need to look at the apostles of Christ to see what a real church is about. It´s about the great commission, gathering disciples and training them to become warriors and teachers who will gather more disciples and spread the Gospel. That´s how Christianity managed to change the world. We´re at fault for living in these awful times, we´ve become to comfortable in our 4 walls, thinking that church is attending this 1-2hour long play every sunday, shaking hands with our brothers, singing the same songs, repeating the same sermon without offending anyone just to have a bigger number of people in the "church". I don´t remember a going to church and hearing someone asking questions? Never did the pastors talk about evolution, the age of the earth, rape inside the church, how to deal with drugs, how to preach to others. Every sunday we´d hear the basics of our faith (of course it´s the most important fact that Jesus saved us) but we wouldn´t grow. I´ve been raised catholic and been one for 20 years and only found God when I finaly left the "church", traditions and denomination behind. I´ve been led to Christ by the real church, by people who study the Word for themselfs, by people who put the Bible and what it says above anyone, by people who correct, support and love each other, by people who have learned to listen to the Holy Spirit and give Him the power over their life. To be honest with all of You, I hate churchianity it has made us weak and led many into the broad way. The mission of the church is to give rest, teach and recharge the believer so he/she can go out and win over souls for God by His will and I don´t see it happening in churchianity. Here´s a great video series about this topic. concieved w/o sin as to be a sinless person and died without sins As I´ve said I´m an ex-catholic so I know what you´re talking about. I´d love to ask You to point me towards the passages in the Bible where your claims are supported. Please don´t feel attacked, I´m giving you a chance to prove your claims. Because as far as I know the only sinless person is Jesus He died on the cross paying the price for our sins so we could become righteous by faith in Him alone (2 Corinthians 5:21) and we all have sinned including Mary. In her psalm uttered while carrying the Christ child, she exclaimed, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.” No sinless person needs a Savior. Clearly this statement implies that Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us (Romans 3:23).
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 27, 2018 19:01:29 GMT -6
How would you define church? Mine, is pretty much Matthew 18:20. I take it literally; applicable to its simplest forms. The gains are so much better the further I get away from "crowds". "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." ~ Agent K from MiB [encourage] LOL
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Post by lefo on Mar 3, 2018 6:40:43 GMT -6
How would you define church? Mine, is pretty much Matthew 18:20. I take it literally; applicable to its simplest forms. The gains are so much better the further I get away from "crowds". "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." ~ Agent K from MiB LOL Well, here is the definition of the Church in a few sentences as my Church teaches it. : In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly, but also the local community or the whole universal community of believers. These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep. "The Church is a cultivated field, the tillage of God. On that land the ancient olive tree grows whose holy roots were the prophets and in which the reconciliation of Jews and Gentiles has been brought about and will be brought about again. That land, like a choice vineyard, has been planted by the heavenly cultivator. Yet the true vine is Christ who gives life and fruitfulness to the branches, that is, to us, who through the Church remain in Christ, without whom we can do nothing. "Often, too, the Church is called the building of God. the Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the comer-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it. It is this holy city that is seen by John as it comes down out of heaven from God when the world is made anew, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. "The Church, further, which is called 'that Jerusalem which is above' and 'our mother', is described as the spotless spouse of the spotless lamb. It is she whom Christ 'loved and for whom he delivered himself up that he might sanctify her.' It is she whom he unites to himself by an unbreakable alliance, and whom he constantly 'nourishes and cherishes.'" A plan born in the Father's heart. I took it all from Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you feel that separating from people is a good thing, because they are just dumb, its satans work. To separate and kill, like a wolf. Divide a conquer. I used to be like that to a point i became flat out evil black metaler looking from above on everyone because they wouldnt understant anyway. The next step is a suicidal thoughts planted by the evil spirit. Its shown nicely in suicidal/depresive black metal. Church is here so Jesus can nourish you thru Her. Maybe you aks why do you need a church to ne nourished by Jesus. The answer is - Because He decided so. Its not up to us to determine what is a church by reading in the Bible. That would be a pridefull approach. Thats why there a Church leaders appointed from the very beginning, so they by cooperating with the Holy Spirit together decide how things would be understood. Or do you think that Jesus would under go all that humilating mission of His just to let everyone be unsure later on what the interpretation of it is ? Look at all those tens of thousands of protestant churches established by men. They teach whatever they find fit. Do you think that is the Holy Spirits doing ? God is not a protester not is He divider. Quite the contrary. Thats why the Church is here.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 3, 2018 6:52:49 GMT -6
If you feel that separating from people is a good thing, because they are just dumb, its satans work. I don't feel like separating from "people". I feel like separating from "crowds". There's a vast difference between those two "concepts". ....and its not from lack of trying. If there was a way for me to worship in a without this fountain of emotional baggage spewing forth and the incessant waves of butthurt when two people have different interpretations of doctrine/dogma.... then I would be all for it. My church just started Sunday nights up again, which I'm VERY excited for since I can't attend Sunday mornings because of work. Again, I'm not against the concept or "people".... its crowds, and crowd mentality that is the first step on this ladder that makes Churchianity the bull-plop that it is.
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Post by lefo on Mar 3, 2018 9:25:30 GMT -6
concieved w/o sin as to be a sinless person and died without sins As I´ve said I´m an ex-catholic so I know what you´re talking about. I´d love to ask You to point me towards the passages in the Bible where your claims are supported. Please don´t feel attacked, I´m giving you a chance to prove your claims. Because as far as I know the only sinless person is Jesus He died on the cross paying the price for our sins so we could become righteous by faith in Him alone (2 Corinthians 5:21) and we all have sinned including Mary. In her psalm uttered while carrying the Christ child, she exclaimed, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.” No sinless person needs a Savior. Clearly this statement implies that Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us (Romans 3:23). First, dont worry about attacking me, im fine with little tensions here and there hehe. I understand that talking about faith can get toughy and edgy, but its normal and natural, all fine. Not everything is in the Bible, but that doesnt mean it is not so and so. As i understand, you go by Sola Scriptura. It could be coutered with - Please show me, where in Bible it is written that it should be Scripture only. Quite the contrary, Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. Read 1Kor 11,2 and also 2Pt 3,15-16. Here they talk as authoritative teachers and interpreters. 1 Tim 3,15 - the Church is the pillar of truth. Also, the Church decided from her authotity, what is and what is not scripture. Because Bible is a catholic book. In about 367 AD, St. Athanasius came up with a list of 73 books for the Bible that he believed to be divinely inspired. This list was finally approved by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD, and was formally approved by the Church Council of Rome in that same year. Later Councils at Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD) ratified this list of 73 books. The Council of Trent, in 1546, reaffirmed St. Athanasius’s original list of 73 books. The Church believed from the very start that Mary stayed a virgin and was sinless. Of course Mary also needed to be saved by Jesus, i explained this somewhere in the earlier post. She could be like that only by the merits of Jesuses redeeming act, but retospectively, as God is not bound by time as we are. She was redeemed straith from her birth so she could maintaint being servant full of grace. Perfect in her faith as the Church is perfect in Her faith (to deliver Him to us in fullness). The reason for this is that she would become a Mother of God, a Church and she needed to stay pure. Church is pure, because She brings the fullness of the Truth to all. Church is sinless in her purity, altho we all are sinfull. The Churchs tradition as i speak of it is very important and can not be outdated as the Truth cant be outdated. He remains still the same. Every key document, that is talking about how ppl should live, must have vivid authoritatiove and continuous tradition that guards, guarantees and explains it. If it would not be so, everyone could explain the scripture as he pleases and chaos would ensue. Look at american constitition, you have a guarded document. Supreme court and vivid tradition guard it. Look on this forum, some think church is important and the others say she is not needed. A chaos, and very dangeroud one, because our souls are at stake.
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Post by lefo on Mar 3, 2018 9:33:53 GMT -6
If you feel that separating from people is a good thing, because they are just dumb, its satans work. I don't feel like separating from "people". I feel like separating from "crowds". There's a vast difference between those two "concepts". ....and its not from lack of trying. If there was a way for me to worship in a without this fountain of emotional baggage spewing forth and the incessant waves of butthurt when two people have different interpretations of doctrine/dogma.... then I would be all for it. My church just started Sunday nights up again, which I'm VERY excited for since I can't attend Sunday mornings because of work. Again, I'm not against the concept or "people".... its crowds, and crowd mentality that is the first step on this ladder that makes Churchianity the bull-plop that it is. I dont understand what exactly do you mean by the crowd mentality in the Church. Jesus came to salvage as many as possible. All are called to be a part of His church as all need Her. I very well understand what it means in secular world tho.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Mar 3, 2018 13:00:42 GMT -6
I dont understand what exactly do you mean by the crowd mentality in the Church. Not crowd mentality per say, but "crowds". Its not a set number. Smaller groups (like my church) offer a lot more to me (from my experience) than wall to wall people, that try to divide the church into cliques. Could a small church be an awful "crowd" and a massive church be great? Of course. ...and I haven't been to all churches so I can't speak for/about all churches, but the ones I've been too... again my experience, the larger they are, the more its a mess that I want nothing to do with. That being said, I'm not interested in arguing optimal church size/presentation/etc. with you or anyone so.... I'm not sure where this conversation is going...
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Post by Borndead on Mar 3, 2018 14:20:50 GMT -6
normal and natural, all fine I´m glad You think this way, it´s good mental and spiritual training hehe Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. Although Sola Scriptura isn´t explicitly mentioned in the Bible. We know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed— the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition. Its not up to us to determine what is a church by reading in the Bible. That would be a pridefull approach. Thats why there a Church leaders appointed from the very beginning, so they by cooperating with the Holy Spirit together decide how things would be understood. Or do you think that Jesus would under go all that humilating mission of His just to let everyone be unsure later on what the interpretation of it is ? Look at all those tens of thousands of protestant churches established by men. They teach whatever they find fit. Do you think that is the Holy Spirits doing ? God is not a protester not is He divider. Quite the contrary. I don´t agree with you that it would be a pridefull approach because Jesus Himself said "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." - Matthew 18:20 and that´s the real Church. Also you talk about church leaders, if you mean the apostles & teachers who REALY follow Jesus then ok, but if you want to say that all popes in RC´s history were/are true leaders of the church I´d have to strongly disagree and it´s not hard to see why. So many "choosen" popes and "leaders/fathers" have done unbelievable atrocities in the name of Christ. We as people don´t decide how the Bible should be understood (we have the Holy Spirit that guides us to Truth) because people would teach whatever they want and blind people, as you´ve said that´s why we have so many denominations. This is mentioned in the Bible 'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues" - Revelation 18:4 Of course it can´t & I´m not saying that we have to ONLY use the Bible for teaching but that everything someone teaches must be in unison with what the Bible says. And people cling to some unbiblical traditions that they believe will save them or give them somekind of bonus the day they stand before God. I'm not sure where this conversation is going.. I have to agree with Thomas, I don´t know where we will go with this but I´m glad that we can talk. ^__^
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