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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 21, 2018 19:12:12 GMT -6
theunblackdoctrine.law.blog/A blog discussing religious views and philosophies in black metal, and how these things pertain to unblack or Christian black metal. VERY deep and thought-out stuff, for sure. No idea who this person is, though the blog was apparently started quite recently - the first post is from 21 August of this year, and the second post was just published yesterday.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 22, 2018 9:11:04 GMT -6
I haven't had time to read the entire thing, but what I did read, I can definitely tell that it is VERY deep and thought-out stuff, for sure. My only gripe is of the obvious. Unblack. Unblackology. I'll not rant AGAIN on how these "Unblackisms" HURT this scene....
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 22, 2018 10:02:56 GMT -6
I still don't see why it's that big of a deal. By pretending the word "unblack" isn't there, all we're doing is setting up a thinly-veiled curtain anybody can see through. Even with bands like Temple of Perdition, The Slave Eye, and other bands who refuse to even be tied to the word "Christianity" much less "Christian black metal" or "unblack metal", any half-decent English speaker will be able to tell they're Christian immediately, and go right back to "unblack metal" anyway. Those who don't care about "unblack" will like them; those who don't like "unblack" will ignore them / dislike their YouTube videos and leave silly """evil""" comments on them. Same with Reverorum ib Malacht - were deeply involved with some weird sort of Luciferianism, etc. and garnered quite a bit of respect from the secular underground.
Most still like them because they don't care about lyrical themes. The rest immediately threw them aside despite Reverorum never once using the word "unblack" to describe themselves just because "they're Christfags now".
It seems better to embrace it, own it, and roll with it than delaying the inevitable.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 22, 2018 11:19:13 GMT -6
I still don't see why it's that big of a deal. Its not a big deal to Christians - but the problem isn't with Christians... Of all the reasons why I reject the term unblack - this is the primary reason: Unblack conforms to the secular black metal ideology, that Christians do not belong in black metal. This is because they claim Christians have no right, no bearing, to play black metal music, and simply put - their claim is "unblack is NOT black", "you have to call what you do a different name". I disagree with this. No one person, band, group or scene, OWNS a music genre, and they have no claim. Christians CAN play/perform/release black metal music and I myself, will not give into their putting us and our music in a separate "box". No different than a bully telling me "you're a chump" and then I proclaim my official nickname as "chump". All my friends call me "chump" and its cool - a quirky title and that's just how I'm known.... but to the detractors, "Yeah, you're a chump" rings true for a different reason.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 22, 2018 14:36:40 GMT -6
Fair enough. I seem to default to a more "us vs them" mentality than you do. Which probably isn't the 100% right way for me to go about things, but anyway. It makes sense to me to accept any invitation to be seen as "different" than something we don't agree with -- I don't want to be seen as "black metal". I specifically want to be seen as "unblack", because objectively, that's what I am, no matter if people have positive or negative opinions of me for it. The shoe fits, so I'll wear it.
Though I get what you're saying with the chump analogy. And I can understand why others wouldn't see the "unblack" thing the same way I do.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 22, 2018 19:32:28 GMT -6
Fair enough. I seem to default to a more "us vs them" mentality than you do. Which probably isn't the 100% right way for me to go about things, but anyway. Faith is a pretty big difference between us and them. As long as people are sucking air, there is hope that they will make choices, to have a change of heart. "Them" can turn into "us" in a lot of possible ways. Scenes grow when there are more people. I'd rather be one of the first with an arm stretched out over their border, than to be one of the enforcers of separate sides when people do come over. It makes sense to me to accept any invitation to be seen as "different" than something we don't agree with -- I don't want to be seen as "black metal". I've met Christians that see black metal's origins as too permanent of a stain in the music industry - and can't stomach the idea of being a Christian version of it. I can respect that. I think the reason I no longer share that mindset is because my feelings are stronger regarding fighting this oppression. When the choices are to pick a different name out of symbolism (unblack metal) or rightfully stand up when I'm unjustly told I don't belong in an entire genre of music... I'm gonna fight for the genre. As much as I don't like "unblack", and think it's not good for us, I'm not about to condemn it or disassociate because of it. There are bigger things to worry about besides terminology. Like people... I specifically want to be seen as "unblack", because objectively, that's what I am, no matter if people have positive or negative opinions of me for it. The shoe fits, so I'll wear it. Though I get what you're saying with the chump analogy. And I can understand why others wouldn't see the "unblack" thing the same way I do. I think what you have and what I have is the same thing. We just have different names for it.
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Post by SLAVE_HEART on Sept 25, 2018 17:29:38 GMT -6
The Horde Album "Hellig Usvart" Or "Holy Unblack" was a twist off a "satanic" band calling Their Album "Unholy Black". As the article in question says, that many secular bands had to pass the "unwritten rules" and subject matter. People originally wanted Black Metal to be Satanic, even to the viking themes of pillage rape and burn down churches. Of Course, when Christianity came to the vikings, there were those who avidly followed it. I saw a show where their was a viking chieftain who hated Chrsitianity, but fell in love with a woman who practiced it and even built a church for her to satisfy her.
While I would say that due to evil people's influence; like aliester crowley hailing bands that represented drugs, sex, and anything as evil in the Rock scene, even making a list of bands he approved of for others, there has been a strong need in the scene for a satanic presence and rebellion and a life of partying by the very people who live, or seek to live that style. And with harder metal, their became a harder need for the extremes of that lifestyle, and thus due to the influence of so much evil leaders who approved this style of music, came the need of an extreme satanic lifestyle.
But even in the rap scene, aside from metal there is the underground rappers who are required to be real gangsta's and not just talk about killing, etc. Some underground records won't even sign a rap artist who is "all talk" no matter how good they "flow". People who live that lifestyle thus icon those who are gangsta's. the rap artist in america 50 cent, is so popular based on the fact he was/maybe still is? Living that hardcore gangsta life and was evident cause he was shot nine times. This is why he is the richest rapper that ever lived. aside from maybe dre who signed him.
In country music, this demand of being a hardcore country artist has to do with actually farming and dealing with cattle.
In pop music, it's how the woman looks, and if she can sing well, she'll be the hardcore one.
Which goes on to show that people criticize the style of secular music from a christian world, because of the extreme ends of rap or metal. For this reason even EDM is hard for Christians to accept because the hardcore end of that is drug trippin raves.
Therefore when the extremes of a music genre have Death and satanism around it, it will be controversial for any Christian form in it. Christians reach the world being in it not of it. Apostle paul said to the jews I became like them, to the gentiles like them, etc. Whatever I got to do to preach Jesus. I love Metal, Unblack or cbm, I love the message.
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Post by SLAVE_HEART on Sept 25, 2018 18:09:18 GMT -6
The Horde Album "Hellig Usvart" Or "Holy Unblack" was a twist off a "satanic" band calling Their Album "Unholy Black Bottom line for either argument: Do you believe black metal means satanic metal, if so - Unblack If you don't believe black metal means satanic metal - Christian Black Metal If you don't care as long as you get the Christian Metal - Either or is acceptable But Unblack sounds cooler for those who want to kill Satan and emphasize War against Satan with Dark Age themes and are a savage warrior - my opinion
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Post by SLAVE_HEART on Sept 25, 2018 18:13:00 GMT -6
btw - due to the free website blog page being the same as the daily unblack, and also the mention of over 900 verses in the bible that deal with music repeated on both pages, I can deduce that it's our Unblack daily mysterious fellow, of whom both forum posts are started by it nocturnaliridescence . Hmmm, I wonder...
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 25, 2018 20:35:45 GMT -6
It's not me. The person uses a quote, for example, from someone named Izaak Walton. I've never heard of Izaak Walton. They also quote Venom in one of their posts. I don't know any songs by Venom and thus can't quote any of their songs. Interesting observation about that "900 verses" thing. I never would have made the connection. Maybe they are by the same person?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 26, 2018 13:51:27 GMT -6
Even though my primary reason in disliking the use of the "Unblack" term is this: Unblack conforms to the secular black metal ideology, that Christians do not belong in black metal. ....it goes beyond that. All metal sub-genres have their own music nuances, except for unblack - which is basically the exact same music as black metal, just with Christian lyrics. This, to me, does not make it legitimate as a "music genre". No other genres change the complete genre name - they just add an adjective to describe it. ie: its the same style of music with Christian lyrics and called Christian rap, not the same style with Christian lyrics and given a different name. (unrap?) I was working with Sherri Ross (the manager of Rowe Productions) for GRIM - Scepter of Blood, where they were using "unblack" in their marketing for their catalogs. That term is quite clever and cool as a descriptor IN A SHOP in the late 90's - 00s. ...but as slang for Christian black metal in 2018? Nope. Count me out. Rowe STOPPED using "unblack" for multiple reasons. I wish I still had the print catalogs to have reference and show proof.... but like many things in my life, it was lost to time... But Unblack sounds cooler for those who want to kill Satan and emphasize War against Satan with Dark Age themes and are a savage warrior - my opinion Let me ask you a question with this scenario.... If someone crawls 10 blocks in a blizzard to get a bottle of booze.... ...and someone else crawls 10 blocks in a blizzard to get to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting... is there any REAL difference in the behavior? That being said.... if black metal is killing and mutilating Christians, angels, Jesus and unblack metal is killing and mutilating satanists, demons and Lucifer.... then I would beg to differ that there's not really much of a lyrical difference between black and unblack at all. My opinion, Christian black metal needs to truly be different lyrically from black. (not the exact same thing they do, pointed in the other direction) Where they have hate, we need love. Where they have war, we need peace. Etc.
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Post by SLAVE_HEART on Sept 27, 2018 11:41:38 GMT -6
ie: its the same style of music with Christian lyrics and called Christian rap, not the same style with Christian lyrics and given a different name. (unrap?) Christian EDM, Christian Rap, Christian Country, Christian Pop... Christian Black Metal - I get that. That being said.... if black metal is killing and mutilating Christians, angels, Jesus and unblack metal is killing and mutilating satanists, demons and Lucifer.... then I would beg to differ that there's not really much of a lyrical difference between black and unblack at all. It's like Christian Gothic. I wrote a whole theology page on this forum. Love of death, just death to the devil, world and flesh. Still barbaric savage. Corpse paint as dead to self, etc. It's the same with Christian Grindcore with brutal themes and just something that opposes satan.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 28, 2018 16:37:18 GMT -6
It's like Christian Gothic. I wrote a whole theology page on this forum. Love of death, just death to the devil, world and flesh. Still barbaric savage. Corpse paint as dead to self, etc. It's the same with Christian Grindcore with brutal themes and just something that opposes satan. I have no issue whatsoever with lyrics opposing Satan. I do have an issue with lyrics layered with violence and hate toward ANYTHING, Satan or not - and I discussed this specifically in the lyrics of the first track on the newest Orationem album coming out. (its about how hate and violence SPECIFICALLY does not have a place in sincere Christian metal) I wouldn't go as far as to say that a song about hating demons or disembowling satanists is sin or wrong - but it's definitely a tacky AF slipperly slope, in my opinion. ...but that all depends on if the lyrics are heart-attack serious or if they're tongue-in-cheek or humorous. Humorous, I might actually enjoy, but again in my opinion, that's something else entirely. I think the best genuine representation of any belief in song lyrics, is proclaiming why the listener should invest in the belief itself. ....not heralding the antithesis of opposing beliefs. That being said, (using descriptors for lyrics here), there is in fact a significant difference between "Christian" black metal and "anti-anti-Christian" black metal. (anti-anti-Christian being defined as being against anything anti-Christian) My biggest gripe with with the anti-anti-Christian lyrics concept that are serious is it being too close to the stomping grounds of hypocrisy. Faith, religion, God bashing lyrics don't bother me, because I file them in my brain as "fiction" and "horror" - because that's what they are, much like I wouldn't think someone's head exploding from a shotgun blast in a B horror movie, is footage of an actual murder. If someone feels the same way, they'll most likely take a "fiction" and "horror" approach to - slaying the unholy, and again, that is fine IMO. ...because that essentially makes it "fiction" and "horror", thus not really "Christian"? Again, that's my take on it. Now if someone stays away from black metal because they take the satanic/anti-Christian lyrics VERY serious, that's not wrong at all. Makes sense if they view it as an attack, and I won't disagree with them even though I feel differently about the context... ....but it wreaks of lack-of-empathy and hypocrisy if they're disturbed by lyrics attacking their faith, but then proactively attack the faith or non-faith of someone else in the lyrics they write. That's like someone who hates thieves, but they will steal from them given the opportunity. Feels like I could have saved myself some time and explained this better if I would have designed a "decision tree" about this instead of typing all I typed.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 28, 2018 18:26:40 GMT -6
I tend to think of Envothril when this topic comes up. I REALLY don't like some of their lyrics. ( "[W]e shall watch as you beg for release. We rebuke you in the name of Christ. You shall beg for mercy as we demand you to move." or "Blasphemy unto the blasphemers. You shall fall by the sword. We will watch as you burn.") I feel that lyrics like this go "too far", in that they contradict the commands God has given us. Anger and resistance can be part of our calling (see, Jesus overturning tables, etc). But "we will watch as you burn" is just spiteful/hateful, and clearly goes against how we are supposed to approach unbelievers. There's a pretty fine line between what is, and isn't, acceptable when it comes to "anger". It can be a difficult line to tread, but it's an important one.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 29, 2018 7:58:21 GMT -6
Anger and resistance can be part of our calling (see, Jesus overturning tables, etc). But "we will watch as you burn" is just spiteful/hateful, and clearly goes against how we are supposed to approach unbelievers. I couldn't have said this better myself. 100% agreed.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 29, 2018 8:44:52 GMT -6
There's a pretty fine line between what is, and isn't, acceptable when it comes to "anger". I don't think Christians should take a blanket approach to anger. What might be in the realm of control for one person, might be "seeing red" or a loss of control "rageout" for another. On that note, in Alcoholics Anonymous literature, in How it Works, anger is referred to as "a luxury of normal men" and "to an alcoholic, its poison". Within reason, I see exactly that. Anger is in our wiring, part of God's design... but it can easily be our downfall. We shouldn't be quick to anger and we also shouldn't hold onto it. When it comes to anger/hate in lyrics though, I think there's an undeniable element of being held onto. I mean, this isn't like a random comment where it can be off the cuff and on the fly.... music and lyrics take time to create, and those feelings would need to be held onto for a while to survive the duration of its creation and publishing.
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Post by drawnsword on Oct 1, 2018 16:56:29 GMT -6
During the 90's, zero's and early tens i read Terrorizer and Zero Tolerance magazines a fair bit and there was always in depth interviews of Black Metal acts. There was always something about there "black" ideology, coming off as more important than the music in the interviews and articles. There seemed to be 3 types of supporters/voices in that BM album scene that stood out;
1. the general extreme metalhead nerd looking for something musically brillant.
2. the black metal weekend party warrior who is more concerned about his image and having a good time than what there partaking in. the depressed poet cluber probably fits here too as they only care about there image and having a good sad time than what there actually speaking over themselves.
3. the seriously tormented soul who craved a certain evil atmosphere to try and sooth there demons or morbidly delighted in a purely negative worldview/ personaly destructive existence. to give an example; I was first comitted to some mental asylums in 2000, in and out for following years. panic attacks, mondo-depressions,sucicide attempts, viloent outbursts and manic states. many rituals went wrong, unwanted presences in my cellar, shadows taking form in the middle of the day, unexplained pains in my whole skeleton, all of a suden i coul'nt walk with my legs for several days. i simply went nuts. brought me to the rehearsals in a wheelchair. found his own son dead. Its not exactly as if i'm free from it, in fact my mental state has become worse and worse. with my allies who live the black metal way of life, they dont choose to cut themselves, rather they are slaves under his will. Master Motorsag of BESTIAL MOCKERY (2006
"I do not think the christian devil has been that interesting to me. for me satan represents something so much bigger than this world, than this universe. i see life as a path...i strive towards a peak where i can transcend this limited state. the satanist decides over his own life and death and prefers to go with a smile on his lips when he has reached his peak in life, when he has accomplished everything and aim to transcend this earthly existence. the satanist dies strong,not by age, disease or depression and he chooses death before dishonor." on wednesday August 16 2006, Jon Nodtveidt of DISSECTION died aged 31, from a single self-inflicted bullet wound to the head. Seriously dedicated to both the MLO and his anti-cosmic satanic beliefs untill the end. his sucicide carried out in ritualistic fashion within a circle of lightened candles and accompained by an MLO text. was also a member of the notorious BLACK CIRCLE .
Somewhere before the time of the "Tens", so-called "Black Metal" acts(yes they sounded BM to the untormented)in there interviews would reject being labeled "Black Metal" and opt for post-"Black Metal" or self made labels, i.e. dark extreme, forest metal,, etc because they understood what the black metal ideology was about and they did'nt want to show disrespect to the huge true orthodox BM underground.
Keep in mind that the "Un" word is a very common part of the BM langauge (unholy, ungod, unlight, etc) and relevant to it making a very clever play using understanding of the BM movement to describe the sound and ideology within it correctly with Christ like Respect.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 4, 2018 14:26:48 GMT -6
Keep in mind that the "Un" word is a very common part of the BM langauge (unholy, ungod, unlight, etc) and relevant to it making a very clever play using understanding of the BM movement to describe the sound and ideology within it correctly with Christ like Respect. That's a good point. Very true with black metal's use of "un" words - it does fit in with the lyrical approach to the scene. ...which to me is the perfect way to proclaim the opposite or negative of something since the "un" prefix can only mean "not". (ie: usual, unusual) ...but my view on it as a main-name for an entire genre, still goes back to here.... I think the best genuine representation of any belief in song lyrics, is proclaiming why the listener should invest in the belief itself. ....not heralding the antithesis of opposing beliefs. "Christian black metal" as a genre descriptor is a cut-and-dry term. Its black metal that is Christian themed. Period. No lengthy explanation needed. "Unblack metal" by its vernacular as a descriptor for an entire genre, doesn't have to be Christian by definition.... It just has to be "not-black black-metal" _______________________ There's something Vision of God Records wrote for their promo of the 6th Orationem full-length. I'm going to type it exactly as it was written. I like how this is described. Parenthesis are inserted in sentences/clauses as an optional explanation or afterthought that is grammatically complete without it. I know I've been vocal about rejecting the unblack term, but I like it this way. Why? Because "Black Metal" (as a music genre) is still the main idea. Hands down, that's what this is - make no mistake about it. - "Unblack" is there as an addendum, to nod to Horde, one of the scene pioneers. - "White" is there as an addendum, to BE the opposite of black, because there's so many ways metal can be "not black". - "Christian" is there to dictate the clear lyrical theme.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 4, 2018 16:03:38 GMT -6
"Unblack metal" by its vernacular as a descriptor for an entire genre, doesn't have to be Christian by definition.... It just has to be "not-black black-metal" How do you figure?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 5, 2018 7:26:56 GMT -6
"Unblack metal" by its vernacular as a descriptor for an entire genre, doesn't have to be Christian by definition.... It just has to be "not-black black-metal" How do you figure? My point was "unblack" has a different meaning with its literal definition (as "not black"), versus its use as slang (americanism?) to be defined as Christian black metal. I'm thinking on behalf of the layman, since "unblack metal" isn't a household term. When you hear "graveyard shift", you pretty much assume it's working overnights or 3rd shift. ....but taken literally as the word states, it means you're working the graveyard. Same thing. ___________________ Another example. You have a "ham sandwich" and you have a "wrap". With just those words, you know the sandwich has ham on it.... and the wrap, is not a sandwich. See how that compares to "Christian black metal" and "unblack metal"? This is where I'd ask - wouldn't someone working in a graveyard from 9am to 5pm, actually be working a graveyard shift? Also, wouldn't all thrash or doom be "unblack metal" since its not-black metal?
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 5, 2018 9:59:48 GMT -6
Also, wouldn't all thrash or doom be "unblack metal" since its not-black metal? That makes sense. I tend to think of similar things whenever people bring up the notion that black metal is an "ideology". If Carly Rae Jepsen, theoretically, releaesd a bubblegum pop album tomorrow about theistic satanism and church burnings, would that make Carly Rae Jepsen ""black metal"" because she adheres to this supposed ""black metal ideology""?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 5, 2018 13:08:24 GMT -6
If Carly Rae Jepsen, theoretically, releaesd a bubblegum pop album tomorrow about theistic satanism and church burnings, would that make Carly Rae Jepsen ""black metal"" because she adheres to this supposed ""black metal ideology""? No. XD "Black metal" is a genre of music specifically a sub-genre of metal. It has pretty distinct audible characteristics (no sense naming them, we all know them) and if a band doesn't fit those, it doesn't fit the genre. In my book, the story ends there. I would argue every genre of music has ideologies outside of produced music. Apart from lyrics/beliefs, there's an ideology that black metal project logos have a gnarly "pile of sticks" look to them. That musicians either have long hair or no hair - and who can forget corpsepaint. There's the ideology that rock and roll musicians don't all wear tuxedos on stage. That death metal musicians don't bathe. That blues musicians are well dressed and play in clubs, not taverns. That punk rock is oozing about rebellion. Ideologies can be broken and the genre can still be retained IMO.... like if a conductor for an orchestra had a green mohawk and massive gauges in their ears, it doesn't make the music any less "classical music" because that image ideology is broken. (ideology being defined as a system of ideas BTW) _____________________________ Madelyn posted on TBL Discord a track from a Christian Country Music artist. I was impressed with how bold the lyrics were. My point, I don't see it as any less "country music" because it wasn't about beer, girls and trucks. Bottom line, Unblack is a GENIUS idea for an album name. Its pretty sweet as a marketing descriptor. If someone says they ARE "unblack" - I know what they mean and I dig it.... but as a genre of music to the point of "this isn't black metal, its unblack metal"? No. I vote no. I actually do not see much difference in the mindset between "There cannot be Christian black metal" and "There cannot be Christian rock music." unfortunately. Sure, the evidence someone would use to say why is different, but what's exactly the same is - the person who thinks this is prioritizing ideology over what audible characteristics there are to the actual music. Also, its odd to me that in death metal, there's Christian death metal and its not called something else - though I have seen the term "life metal" floating around here and there. It just didn't catch on like unblack did - probably because there's no flagship Christian death metal album that coined a separate pun for CDM.
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Post by drawnsword on Oct 5, 2018 14:15:34 GMT -6
1.The general extreme metalhead nerd says Black Metal is a musical genre, we have black thrash, black death , depressive black. black power thrash, black funeral doom, majestic black, ambient black, atmospheric black, Industrail black etc etc
2. the black metal weekend party warrior and the depressed poet club says depending on who there with " hail satan" or "who gives a fack" but always "Christans cant play BM" 3. The seriously tormented souls say Black Metal is a movement not a musical genre. It is identified by the spirit and atmosphere of it. It's always about creating the blackest atmosphere they can muster over musical marvels. The sound and ideology are one and cannot be seperated.
The deep bm underground testifys the fact that there is'nt one particular playing style for it too be identified as Black Metal because BM is not defined by certain riff styles etc. How does one technically play and sound Black metal when anything can be used. Theres Death metal, Thrash metal, Power or Doom metal riffs and various other musical genre elements that are used in various degrees in Black Metal. It's not all shrill tremello picking with blastbeats and high pitched shrieks. Just slap some high pitched shrieks in over your dark metal and bang its BM. nah not by the real deals standards. There is much that is borrowed from other metal styles, but also mixed with other important elements to create the sound and feel of BM. Why is atmosphere, tone and production everything in BM, and not about lead guitar wizardry or any musical show off wankery? It's because real BM is about creating a massive grim, evil as you can make it atmosphere by playing it on your musical instruments however works to get that nasty creepy sound. The approach is completely differant to other metal styles this is why BM is widely misunderstood. Satanic rituals, spells, black majik and other occult practices are also used during recordings, others have such hatefull or negative hopless spirits this also effects the recorded atmosphere.
Unblack is upfront and honest without being percieved as trying to deceive, hide, intrude or evangelize an allready vehemently anti-christ and negative scene full of hatred for Christians.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 5, 2018 21:14:20 GMT -6
It is identified by the spirit and atmosphere of it. It's always about creating the blackest atmosphere they can muster over musical marvels. The sound and ideology are one and cannot be seperated. This confuses me as well. I've heard Christian black metal, or black metal made by Christians, that DEFINITELY has the same atmosphere as secular black. (See 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc) Doesn't make sense to me that, at the very least, music like that can't be considered "black metal". Edit: Especially since a lot of Christian black metal is MUCH closer to black metal's "philosophy" than most secular black metal in the first place. We actually worship a deity, we don't just play pretend and draw symbols on our albums for fun like most "satanic" black metal bands.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 6, 2018 9:33:33 GMT -6
Judging from James's 3 types, it looks like I'm more of a "general extreme metalhead nerd" and he's more of a "seriously tormented soul"? LOL XD Just slap some high pitched shrieks in over your dark metal and bang its BM. nah not by the real deals standards. My opinion, "dark metal" is not a music genre, and is a term that's just as much slang as "unblack metal" or "forest metal". Its either a way for "the black metal elite" to disown a band because there are characteristics outside of their little box, or a band that doesn't want to be under the black metal banner and likes the made up slang term instead - for individuality or to reject the norm. That being said, I have never heard a "dark metal" band that I wouldn't just call black metal or black/death metal myself. _____________________ For me, the ball is pretty much in the court of the artist on what they call their art - but its not 100% the case. What a musician calls their music certainly has more weight than what some random listener says it is. As the artist, I say Orationem is BLACK METAL. Sure there's a grindy riff here and a deathy vocal there, but I would say to call this death/black/grind would be inaccurate. I've been told Orationem is NOT black metal - purely because "black metal can't be Christian". To me, that makes about as much sense as staring and pointing at a fire hydrant and saying "that is not a fire hydrant". ala Them "You can't make Christian black metal. Black metal can't be Christian." Me "I just made it, and you just listened to it. (??!??!?)" A "not no holds barred" example- Stryper says they are NOT a Christian band. Michael Sweet has been asked this publicly multiple times and his answer is the same every time - Stryper is NOT a Christian band. ...but they pray, hand out Bibles, etc. at their concerts.... it makes relative sense to say, "No Michael Sweet, Stryper is Christian". If it has feathers, quacks, has webbed feet - its a duck, dude. Here's a scenario - 3 guys are standing under a very large "plant" with bark on it. What is it? One dude says - "Its a tree. IDGAF what kind, but its a tree." Another dude says - "Its a type of tall bush. The difference between trees and bushes is.... (blah blah blah)" Another dude says - "Bush is not a trve/kvlt term, its slang for shrub and this is a giant shrub." Who's right? I don't think that's the question.... What anyone calls it does not change what it is.... Call it "a noodle" and this "plant" is still going to be the same height, same shape, provide the same shade, etc. EDIT: For the record, I really like the term "extreme metal". Yeah its slang too, but it bypasses all the fine print of what something is and just goes straight into "its more extreme than "regular" metal". That then puts Napalm Death and Grifteskymfning in the same category, which I find to be quite satisfactory.
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Post by drawnsword on Oct 6, 2018 15:26:49 GMT -6
It is identified by the spirit and atmosphere of it. It's always about creating the blackest atmosphere they can muster over musical marvels. The sound and ideology are one and cannot be seperated. This confuses me as well. I've heard Christian black metal, or black metal made by Christians, that DEFINITELY has the same atmosphere as secular black. (See 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc) Doesn't make sense to me that, at the very least, music like that can't be considered "black metal". Edit: Especially since a lot of Christian black metal is MUCH closer to black metal's "philosophy" than most secular black metal in the first place. We actually worship a deity, we don't just play pretend and draw symbols on our albums for fun like most "satanic" black metal bands. Some of the true BM i'v heard made my hair stand on end as far as an evil presence felt in the recordings. Never heard any Christian Unblack metal touch anywhere near that kind of atmosphere, ever.
Not all true BM worships a deity, while theres a massive stronghold of orthodox satanism and other interpretations of it, along with other occultism and paganism gods, theres also nihilism for another example. Nihilism is a extremely negative, bleak and hopeless outlook which is just as equally black.
Make no mistake, most orthodox BM in sound/ideology are deadly serious, its a lifestyle to them. This is why those who have grown in commercial sucess have opt-ed for another label other than black metal because they know they have compromised in some way and fear for there lives with those who live BLACK. Those who pretended in the past get a taste for coin and start to see life as something different.
edit; Just to be clear i think unblack can be atmospheric just not share the same spirit. Its funny though how people say this is atmospheric BM when being atmospheric is a foundational BM defining element. What people in the true scene comment on is how good the atmosphere is or the spirit of it.
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Post by drawnsword on Oct 6, 2018 15:59:15 GMT -6
Judging from James's 3 types, it looks like I'm more of a "general extreme metalhead nerd" and he's more of a "seriously tormented soul"? LOL XD Just slap some high pitched shrieks in over your dark metal and bang its BM. nah not by the real deals standards. My opinion, "dark metal" is not a music genre, and is a term that's just as much slang as "unblack metal" or "forest metal". Its either a way for "the black metal elite" to disown a band because there are characteristics outside of their little box, or a band that doesn't want to be under the black metal banner and likes the made up slang term instead - for individuality or to reject the norm. That being said, I have never heard a "dark metal" band that I wouldn't just call black metal or black/death metal myself. _____________________ For me, the ball is pretty much in the court of the artist on what they call their art - but its not 100% the case. What a musician calls their music certainly has more weight than what some random listener says it is. As the artist, I say Orationem is BLACK METAL. Sure there's a grindy riff here and a deathy vocal there, but I would say to call this death/black/grind would be inaccurate. I've been told Orationem is NOT black metal - purely because "black metal can't be Christian". To me, that makes about as much sense as staring and pointing at a fire hydrant and saying "that is not a fire hydrant". ala Them "You can't make Christian black metal. Black metal can't be Christian." Me "I just made it, and you just listened to it. (??!??!?)" A "not no holds barred" example- Stryper says they are NOT a Christian band. Michael Sweet has been asked this publicly multiple times and his answer is the same every time - Stryper is NOT a Christian band. ...but they pray, hand out Bibles, etc. at their concerts.... it makes relative sense to say, "No Michael Sweet, Stryper is Christian". If it has feathers, quacks, has webbed feet - its a duck, dude. Here's a scenario - 3 guys are standing under a very large "plant" with bark on it. What is it? One dude says - "Its a tree. IDGAF what kind, but its a tree." Another dude says - "Its a type of tall bush. The difference between trees and bushes is.... (blah blah blah)" Another dude says - "Bush is not a trve/kvlt term, its slang for shrub and this is a giant shrub." Who's right? I don't think that's the question.... What anyone calls it does not change what it is.... Call it "a noodle" and this "plant" is still going to be the same height, same shape, provide the same shade, etc. EDIT: For the record, I really like the term "extreme metal". Yeah its slang too, but it bypasses all the fine print of what something is and just goes straight into "its more extreme than "regular" metal". That then puts Napalm Death and Grifteskymfning in the same category, which I find to be quite satisfactory. haha. The thing is its the tormented souls that invented black metal. The old guard are ones that made the rules, set the standards and passed it on to the new guard. Everything else outside of it is a commercial compromise in the true scenes eyes and they get rejected big time for it. I'v seen all kinds of sounding to me BM acts drop the label because they don't identify with the black in black metal anymore or more likely they didn't want to be disrespectful to avoid problems.
When i said dark metal i wasn't referring to it as a genre of metal, i was describing broadly, meaning you cant create a grim/dark sounding metal and slap shrieks and presto you have black metal... a BM act could have have death metal vocals deep growls or a BM act could have death metal like riffage.
The spirit, atmosphere, tone and production along with spritual influence are the elements that denfine BM. The black ideology is also considered more important than the music though its considered a part of it . Never just dark subject matter just pure evil and otherwise pure negative which is evil anyway.
Think of it this way, Black GOSPEL music was created by Christians. GOSPEL stands for God offering sinful people eternal life. Imagine if satanists took Gospel music and played it exactly the same but it was all about there beliefs in the singing. And then they called there music satanism gospel music. It would'nt make any sense because satan doesn't mind if you sin. If they called it satanism ungospel music then it makes technical sense. Further more if you listened to it you would probably pick up an evil atmosphere from there satanic worship and be able to tell it wasn't true Gospel music if it had been labelled and marketed as gospel only.
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Post by drawnsword on Oct 6, 2018 16:20:23 GMT -6
The reason why they say Christians cant play BLACK METAL is because they just cant even if they wanted too. Death and Life is in the power of the tounge. The spirit in BM is just not a place a believer goes to conjure up that kind of atmosphere.
if you strip it back to what makes it BM these are the only things you can nail it too, the spirit, atmosphere, tone, production, spritual influence, black ideology.
Whatever you think BM is and no matter what you call it as Christians it's just going to look silly or offensive to all party's.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 6, 2018 16:27:11 GMT -6
Some of the true BM i'v heard made my hair stand on end as far as an evil presence felt in the recordings. Never heard any Christian Unblack metal touch anywhere near that kind of atmosphere, ever. I have, but mostly* only in bands that later left the faith For example, even back when Swine Suicide had Christian lyrics, their music creeped me out. That's actually why I don't listen to most "ex-Christian" music and at first, didn't even include it on Unblack Archives -- because even if they had Christian lyrics, there was ALWAYS something "off" in their sound. You could feel the evil in it. Though it seems you and I are in a minority on that -- most people don't seem to be able to pick up on it, which is strange to me. Heck, most people don't seem to be able to pick up on the "evil" in normal black metal. * There are a couple exceptions. Reverorum ib Malacht immediately come to mind, especially their albums "De Mysteriis Dom Christi" and "Im Ra Distare..."
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 7, 2018 8:17:10 GMT -6
Some of the true BM i'v heard made my hair stand on end as far as an evil presence felt in the recordings. Feelings aren't fact though. Back when I was in college, I went into a K-Mart. I'm wearing a log chain around my neck, spiked bracers, hair down to my lower back, all black clothing. I'll never forget the old couple that looked at me like I was evil incarnate. The old woman moved close to the old man and he held her tight. They looked scared. They FELT I was evil, satanic, etc. and I could see it was EXTREMELY real to them. They had no idea that I was a Christian and at the time, only listened to Christian "extreme metal". At one point in time, I had "a feeling" listening to Cradle of Filth "Cruelty and the Beast" and Old Man's Child "In Defiance of Existence" - but that feeling wasn't "there's overwhelming evil here". The feeling more more akin to "I shouldn't be listening to this"... ...but that went away. I became desensitized. I would not say this is a bad thing. Boogeymen are created when something felt is given more power than it really has. The thing is its the tormented souls that invented black metal. The old guard are ones that made the rules, set the standards and passed it on to the new guard. Everything else outside of it is a commercial compromise in the true scenes eyes and they get rejected big time for it. I'v seen all kinds of sounding to me BM acts drop the label because they don't identify with the black in black metal anymore or more likely they didn't want to be disrespectful to avoid problems. The founding fathers of black metal were more insane than evil. The last book I really read intently was "Lords of Chaos" - a thick novel about the "bloody rise of the black metal underground". I mean, you've got people killing homosexuals (a lot of people don't talk about WHY Varg killed Eronymous - its fueled because of what he found in his place), you've got dudes with dead birds in bags, huffing them. Dead blew his brains out so lets make a necklace from the skull frags. Church burnings. Cutting themselves with broken beer bottles on stage. Etc. Saying black metal is inherently evil because members did A, B and C is like saying Wisconsin is a place of evil in the US because that's where Jeffery Dahmer was from. Strawman, through and through. A completely broken if/then. No disrespect intended.... I love secular black metal, even the satanic stuff. If its good music, I listen to it. The lyrics to the Orationem track "I Am Not Here To Judge" is an olive branch to secular black metal. Anyone so offended by a Christian presence in black metal only cater to the crazy from the black metal founders. It makes no sense to side with them regarding lyrics, and then think huffing a dead bird in a paper bag is too out there. Its all part of the madness they had. Think of it this way, Black GOSPEL music was created by Christians. GOSPEL stands for God offering sinful people eternal life. Imagine if satanists took Gospel music and played it exactly the same but it was all about there beliefs in the singing. And then they called there music satanism gospel music. It would'nt make any sense because satan doesn't mind if you sin. If they called it satanism ungospel music then it makes technical sense. Further more if you listened to it you would probably pick up an evil atmosphere from there satanic worship and be able to tell it wasn't true Gospel music if it had been labelled and marketed as gospel only. Gospel is a lyric genre, not a music genre like Black Metal is. I go to my Walmart and there's As I Lay Dying CDs in the Gospel section. I go to Walmart.com and sort by Gospel music - there's albums by Stryper, Skillet, Demon Hunter..... and this isn't just a Walmart phenomenon. Go to online to the Gospel sections for Best Buy, Barnes and Noble, Target, ANYWHERE you can 1) go into a store and buy CDs 2) they have a Gospel section. All these stores, there's pop, country, rap, rock and metal filed under "Gospel" because they all share a relation in lyrical themes. If there was some theistic satanic R&B, it would be filed under R&B... Period. Black metal isn't a religion or a lyric genre. Plenty of non-Christian/secular black metal talks about other things besides hating Christianity, loving Satan. Its not the mid 90s anymore. Black metal themes have evolved to artist discretion, like any other music.
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