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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 14, 2019 19:57:19 GMT -6
I've noticed somewhat of a phenomenon between the Christian and secular black metal scenes. I don't really know what to call this, so I'm just going to describe it instead. Let's take the Russian "Batyushka" as an example. Bartimaeus and I both LOVE this music. Meanwhile, the secular scene is [mercilessly] [trashing] them. Another example would be Animae Capronii, and similarly "bad quality" projects. The secular scene hates this stuff. .......... Yet, Cesare has many fans on his Facebook pages -- and you can tell these fans (myself included!) are genuine. It's not just that he's a Christian artist so we "need to support" him, but rather, there is a genuine audience for stuff like Animae Capronii; Calvarium; Eternal Father; etc. On the other hand, we have a lot of stuff that the secular scene would easily eat up like Last Battle, Dying Blaze, Dominus Dominantium, and MUCH MORE. ............. yet when these bands release new music, they don't seem to get nearly as much fanfare as say, when controversial death/black band Frost like Ashes reuinted. At this point, many would just say it's Christians' lack of exposure to secular metal, that we live in a bubble of our own ideologies, but that's just not true. Nearly every single Christian you encounter in this scene will tell you that they listen to at least some secular music. In several cases, they even listen to more secular music than Christian music. And that's just the ones who have been part of the Christian faith for a long time. There are those who have had years and years of exposure to secular music before converting. My old beliefs were definitely ... "influenced" by Christianity, but from the time I was introduced to black metal (2007) until 2014, the overwhelming majority of music I listened to was occult, satanic, pagan, etc. and my beliefs were also influenced by all these things. And there are many, MANY more like me in this scene who have had a ton of exposure to secular metal. I've seen tons of people on both sides, say that Christian black metal is inferior to secular black metal. I've seen many Christians (myself included) say that Christian black metal is SUPERIOR to secular black metal. All this leads me to question something. ... Could we have, somehow, fostered a slightly different taste in music than the secular scene? Could part of the disconnect between "us" and "them" be that we're each trying to create a slightly different kind of music than the other side? I have previously noticed the bizarre amount of Christian metalcore and deathcore, and it seems a lot of Christian people (myself included) tend to lean slightly more toward "doomy" music (including the aforementioned -core music which relies a lot on ominous breakdowns, sheer heaviness, etc) while a lot of the secular scene seems to lean more toward the "thrashy" end of stuff, and this seems to be reflected a fair bit in the kind of black metal we create as well. ...... Could there actually be something to this??
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 15, 2019 11:38:21 GMT -6
The secular scene hates this stuff. The "secular scene" mentioned in those links is four individual dudes on Metal Archives. Sorry bro. That is a long ways away from being "the secular scene". Even if it was 100 or 1000 individual people saying hateful things about those specific projects on multiple platforms.... I'd still question that as being an accurate representation of an ENTIRE "scene". (which is probably a million+ artists and listeners) ...though I'm sure those 4 haters would like the idea of someone considering them to be the voice for the entire scene. Yeah, I wouldn't give them that kind of power if it were me. I've seen tons of people on both sides, say that Christian black metal is inferior to secular black metal. I've seen many Christians (myself included) say that Christian black metal is SUPERIOR to secular black metal. Preference and bias is a thing. I don't mean bias as a close-minded always-bad thing, I mean it as people like different music for different reasons.... some of which may not have to do with music at all. A friend of mine a while back, loved Cradle of Filth. He met them at a show, said the drummer was a huge pretentious jerk, so he got rid of all their merch he had, and now hates the band nor will he listen to them anymore, or anything new they release. ... Could we have, somehow, fostered a slightly different taste in music than the secular scene? Could part of the disconnect between "us" and "them" be that we're each trying to create a slightly different kind of music than the other side? Yes and no. For one, a band, irregardless of their ideology, if they're GOOD, they will sound DIFFERENT. (aka not exactly like something else) I could be wrong about this, but I feel like there's a shortage of drummers for Christian black metal. (if not a shortage, a preference to use drum machines instead) ....so that in itself will be a different sound characteristic, to a lot of secular bands who use a drummer. I could also be wrong about this, but I feel like Christian black metal tends to sound like an older wave of the black metal sound. Now, this isn't across the board for all bands, but I've speculated that if they become a Christian, and their secular pallet was from then - that might explain why that is. ...and I'd like to state that going with an older black metal sound is NOT a bad thing at all. ...... Could there actually be something to this?? There could be, but I have my doubts... serious doubts... regarding ever pinpointing an actual majority opinion on a clear distinction between the secular and Christian black metal sound. I would say there's a silent majority as well as any poll about this would still only cover a very small percentage of the actual populous. Bottom line, if you notice a difference between the unblack and black SOUND and you think unblack is better, well that's a good thing bro. I won't disagree with you!
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Post by julienbakerfan on Sept 15, 2019 18:53:59 GMT -6
Personally I listen to more Christian black metal than mainstream black metal (CBM was my gateway drug to black metal), so I suppose I have a different perspective. Additionally, most of the mainstream black metal I listen to is Wolves In the Throne Room-type stuff. The only "vanilla black metal" I listen to is Christian Black Metal (and maybe Mgla). There aren't many Christian bands that sound like WITTR--in fact, apart from Vials of Wrath, I can't think of any right now that ape that sound or subject matter. I think the dominance of "core" bands has more to do with the hardcore culture that they arose from. Unlike black or death metal, hardcore and early metalcore often had a positive message of self-improvement--think of all the straight-edge bands like Youth of Today and Gorilla Biscuits. Hardcore bands also had more "propagandistic" lyrics that dealt with social or personal issues as opposed to the more fantasy-oriented lyrics of death and black metal. Thus, when metalcore started to go mainstream in the early 2000s, it was a good time for Christians to hop on the bandwagon, so to speak. Christian metal bands fit in well with the whole Vans Warped Tour scene that was more about dealing with depression and planting trees than worshipping Satan and drinking beer. Given the fact that Christians started a lot of solid bands in that scene, it makes sense that they would continue to remain a major presence in that scene. Thought: If Christian metalheads prefer doomy bands, then how come there are almost no Christian doom bands, and even fewer Christian doom bands that are recognized as classics within their genre? Another thought: Why did those two guys on MetalArchives hate-review four of Animae Capronii's albums? I can understand hate-reviewing one album. Once you've hate-reviewed four albums, well, it's time to get out of your parents' basement and find a girlfriend. I imagine that these are the same kind of guys that say that "Slipknot isn't metal" and call Asking Alexandria "gay." Thomas Eversole I think the reason that a lot of Christian Black Metal bands sound like 2nd-wave black metal is because a lot of mainstream black metal bands sound like 2nd-wave black metal. I suspect that if we picked out any hobby-level black metal project at random, there would be a higher probability that it sounds like Emperor, Darkthrone, or Mayhem rather than a newer band. And most Christian metal bands tend to be at the hobby or local level; Christian metal is not exactly a money-making opportunity.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 15, 2019 20:25:07 GMT -6
All I really have to go off of is anecdotal observations. I've seen tons of things in comment sections, forum threads, musical trends etc, but haven't kept records of them, nor have I done actual, extensive research. So it ... comes across as kind of "out of thin air", even though it really isn't. EG For Animae Capronii, I only listed a few MA reviews, but go to any YouTube video (except "Winter Psalms") and look at the comments, or look at the like/dislike ratios. (Obviously I'm not saying the criticism is warranted, but the criticism is there, regardless.) I could also be wrong about this, but I feel like Christian black metal tends to sound like an older wave of the black metal sound. You're definitely onto something with this. While I did listen to some newer music, I would say the vast majority of stuff I used to like was from 1995-2005. Obscure ambient black, experimental symphonic black with grainy production, classic "static guitars over blastbeats" stuff, etc. There's a lot of music like that in the Christian scene. Thought: If Christian metalheads prefer doomy bands, then how come there are almost no Christian doom bands, and even fewer Christian doom bands that are recognized as classics within their genre? I didn't imply we had a thriving doom metal scene, I said, "tend to lean slightly more toward 'doomy' music ( including the aforementioned -core music which relies a lot on ominous breakdowns, sheer heaviness, etc) while a lot of the secular scene seems to lean more toward the 'thrashy' end of stuff, and this seems to be reflected a fair bit in the kind of black metal we create as well". It's not widespread enough I'd consider it a "rule", but a lot of Christian metal seems to ... emphasize chords, heaviness, brutality, "ominous" sounds, etc more than the "direct" / "overt" / "speedy" sound of secular music. Incidentally this isn't always limited to metal, either. A lot of Christian country that I've heard seems more "doomy" than mainstream hip-hoppin' country/pop/rock/metal/etc.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Sept 15, 2019 21:02:17 GMT -6
I didn't imply we had a thriving doom metal scene, I said, "tend to lean slightly more toward 'doomy' music ( including the aforementioned -core music which relies a lot on ominous breakdowns, sheer heaviness, etc) while a lot of the secular scene seems to lean more toward the 'thrashy' end of stuff, and this seems to be reflected a fair bit in the kind of black metal we create as well". I didn't take you to imply that we had a thriving doom scene, I was just thinking that if it's the case that the ominous, doom-y sound predominates in Christian music, then it's at least unusual that there aren't a lot of top-tier Christian doom bands.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Sept 15, 2019 22:35:03 GMT -6
I didn't take you to imply that we had a thriving doom scene, I was just thinking that if it's the case that the ominous, doom-y sound predominates in Christian music, then it's at least unusual that there aren't a lot of top-tier Christian doom bands. Ahh, okay. Yeah, I think the doom we do have is pretty top-tier. Dustt, Evangelist, early Trouble... I haven't really listened to Forsaken but a lot of people like them, etc. ... but I've noticed the same thing. For all the somber, ominous Christian music I've heard (eg thrash band Ritual Servant's song "Seven Trumpets"), and the seeming lack of more "lighthearted" stuff in the scene (eg those "tongue-in-cheek" secular thrash bands like S.O.D. or Wehrmacht)............. very few Christian artists seem to take the plunge and just play straight-up doom metal. If they approach something close to "doom", it's often some other genre interspersed with doom influences (eg Thy Fiery Haze's black metal EP "Abyss" or Crush Evil's death metal demo "The Defeat of Satan") It's really strange. I don't know why that is.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Nov 3, 2019 20:16:04 GMT -6
A strange observation relating to this:
Hesychast gets compared to Batushka (1) a lot. I actually like Hesychast better. The difference between those two bands seems to fit the distinction you made between Christian and secular bands. Hesychast is a lot more atmospheric and shoegazey; Batushka is more riffy, and thrashy. To me, Batushka sounds closer to something you'd hear at a frat party (albeit a really, really weird frat party).
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Post by exo on Nov 4, 2019 15:03:28 GMT -6
A strange observation relating to this: Hesychast gets compared to Batushka (1) a lot. I actually like Hesychast better. The difference between those two bands seems to fit the distinction you made between Christian and secular bands. Hesychast is a lot more atmospheric and shoegazey; Batushka is more riffy, and thrashy. To me, Batushka sounds closer to something you'd hear at a frat party (albeit a really, really weird frat party). I’d go to that frat party......
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