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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 25, 2021 7:38:19 GMT -6
I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.
The NLT [c] footnote states: "Greek at glorious ones, which are probably evil angels." The [d] footnote states: "Greek Michael, the archangel" .
How I'm interpreting this...
Verse 8 seems to condemn scoffing (which is 'showing scorn') to demons/angels/spirits. And verse 9 uses an archangel not rebuking/admonishing/criticizing/warring with Satan as a comparative example. Verse 10 makes it sound like it's an ignorant (potentially deadly) thing for people to do.
Anyone else have a different take?
Honestly, it seems to fit with me on Romans 12 / Deuteronomy 32 "Vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord", not "vengeance is anyone's who hates the devil". James 4 saying "Resist the devil", not "poke the devil with a stick". ...and also
The footnote (a) states: "English translations divide verses 4 and 5 in various ways."
Its probably one of the worst kept secrets in Christian metal, that I take issue with how some Christian metal bands go about "bashing/insulting/mocking" satan/demons in their lyrics. I can't help but wonder why Christian bands (people) think this is a perfectly fine thing to do, when one of God's most powerful angels won't even do it?
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on May 25, 2021 8:33:43 GMT -6
I can't tell if that thing with Michael is just an example that Jude invented to illustrate a point, or if it's a recounting of something that actually happened.
If it is something that happened, I admit that I can't say why Michael would refuse to confront the devil. At the same time though, it just doesn't sit well with me to imply that we should have some kind of fear of Satan, and then by extension, that he has some kind of authority. If that's the case, then what's the point of me and others overcoming the occult? Can a Christian even say then that Christ's sacrifice broke any chains or set them free from anything? Can we say that Satan has been defeated in any meaningful way?
Do we even have authority over the enemy or the ability to cast out demons as Jesus said in Luke 10:19?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 25, 2021 15:04:33 GMT -6
I can't tell if that thing with Michael is just an example that Jude invented to illustrate a point, or if it's a recounting of something that actually happened. It wouldn't state "This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body." if Jude is just coining a parable. That is way too specific, and I absolutely believe this was a recount of an actual event. At the same time though, it just doesn't sit well with me to imply that we should have some kind of fear of Satan, and then by extension, that he has some kind of authority. Satan absolutely has "some kind of authority". The Gospel of John wouldn't have referred to Satan as "the ruler of this world" 3 times if Satan was this nobody nothing or already dead. (12:31, 14:30, 16:11) Its not a binary choice of scorn/criticize/rebuke Satan or... be afraid of Satan. There's numerous passages telling us to be watchful. (again, awareness isn't fear) Resisting Satan and standing firm isn't fear either. Belt of truth, breastplate of righteousness, boots of peace, shield of faith, helm of salvation and sword of the spirit. (Ephesians 6:10-20) The sword of the spirit isn't a demon-slayer either. Its literally our bible (verse 17). All of this is for defense, not offense. If that's the case, then what's the point of me and others overcoming the occult? I would have thought the point of escaping the occult would be because truth and salvation were found? Can a Christian even say then that Christ's sacrifice broke any chains or set them free from anything? What Christ did on the cross, set us free from sin and death. It did not remove Satan and demons from existence. Can we say that Satan has been defeated in any meaningful way? No. Satan WILL be defeated, but he is not yet defeated. He's still the ruler of this world. Do we even have authority over the enemy or the ability to cast out demons as Jesus said in Luke 10:19? No we do not. Luke 10 starts with recounting Jesus designating additional disciples. (different versions say they were 70 or 72 of them) This isn't "all Christians for all time" by any means. Christ outlined his authority with these disciples, and yes, these 70-72 disciples were able to command evil into obedience because of Christ's authority, not their own as demon fighters. (verse 16) Also, Christ (verse 20) forbid them to rejoice at evil obeying. Instead, "rejoice because your names are registered in heaven". I admit that I can't say why Michael would refuse to confront the devil. Its not his fight! Just like its not our fight!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 26, 2021 10:58:40 GMT -6
A very interesting (to me) parallel...
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on May 26, 2021 12:18:44 GMT -6
Alternate translations of "daring even to scoff at supernatural beings" include:
"they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones," "they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." "they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,"
So something is missing here.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 26, 2021 14:43:00 GMT -6
Alternate translations of "daring even to scoff at supernatural beings" include: "they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones," "they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." "they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties," So something is missing here. KJV for Jude 1:8 and 2nd Peter 2:10 uses the word "dignities", which I've encountered one argument that this could be different from supernatural beings. My response to that: Using a Greek text analysis of Jude 1:8, the "glorious ones" is the term δόξας (doxas). Strong's Concordance .1391 covers the non-plural version of the word δόξα (doxa), which defines as "glory" but its usage includes "an especially divine quality". ie: (KJV) 1st Peter 1:11 - Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. ( "the glory" being δόξας (doxas)) No way around it - these passages are not describing "human glory". While I'll agree there's an ambiguity with who/what Jude 1:8 and 2nd Peter 2:10 are referring to when only examining that verse, the following verse (example) in Jude 1:9 / 2nd Peter 2:11 make it quite clear what its referring to. (hence the footnote from the NLT scholars, hence the following verse using an example where a mighty angel doesn't scorn something else divine.) We have two points (so far) in scripture where angels DO NOT take it upon themselves to sass, scold, rebuke, scoff at, show contempt for, etc. "a target" with divine attributes. It makes no sense to me in context to this verse why an angel of the Lord, would rebuke the Lord. Or rebuke a fellow angel of the Lord. Yet demons/Satan (as much as we don't like the idea) are "supernatural", and I'm quite certain, this is a warning not to taunt powerful spirits. (regardless of side) Satan's direct mention in Jude 1:9 wouldn't even be there if he wasn't a qualifier. Scripture isn't known for absolutely pointless mentions. Do you have a scriptural rebuttal of these passages to support an authority to scoff at (show scorn for) Satan and demons (supernatural beings)??...because quite honestly, for days now, I've been looking for just that, and haven't found it. Not that I don't want to find it either. It would bring me a great deal of peace to find that I missed something that other Christian metal satan-bashers picked up on. ...but the more I research, the more passages and commentary I find, that taking it upon ourselves to rebuke/criticize Satan/demons is not what God wants us to do. I do appreciate you being engaged and bringing your points though. In the handful of communities where I've brought this same scenario, the responses have either been cricket sounds (no response) or, they fully agree with Jude 1:9/2nd Peter 2:11 points, despite the "glorious ones / angelic majesties / dignities" ambiguity of the prior verses.
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Post by _ on May 26, 2021 15:23:34 GMT -6
I'm not in a place to engage these questions; I appreciate your patience with my cricketdom.
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Post by lefo on May 27, 2021 3:00:56 GMT -6
A good call, finally somebody around these parts noticed. You don't taunt the evil one, but know he is x-times more powerful than any of us. And God will permit him challenging you back if you think nothing can touch you. I always cringe when i see all those satan destroyers and deamon beheaders, while those have already heavy plans to annihilate you spiritually. And they already have done so, lying to you there is no Church. You (not necessarily you) are easy pray to them lacking eucharistic Jesus. But what do i know being stinky catholic pagan.
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Post by barabbas on May 27, 2021 9:17:32 GMT -6
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on May 27, 2021 21:41:27 GMT -6
You don't taunt the evil one, but know he is x-times more powerful than any of us. He is more powerful than us humans, when we are without Christ. With Christ, we are more powerful. (Taking particular care not to be deceived by pride -- it's solely with, and through Christ that we are made stronger than we could ever hope to be on our own evil merits.)
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Post by lefo on May 29, 2021 1:59:31 GMT -6
You don't taunt the evil one, but know he is x-times more powerful than any of us. He is more powerful than us humans, when we are without Christ. With Christ, we are more powerful. (Taking particular care not to be deceived by pride -- it's solely with, and through Christ that we are made stronger than we could ever hope to be on our own evil merits.) Although you are being correct that in Christ we are protected, still God didn't give us any right to engage with the evil spirits in any way (including making fun of them and taunting them), because that would be just prideful. After all, it's God's power not ours. That's why archangel Michael didn't poke the devil any further but let God do His justice.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 29, 2021 9:46:42 GMT -6
This is a different statement than "Yes, and the Lord turns all Christians into superheroes capable of attacking, admonishing, sassing and rebuking evil spirits at personal will. So long as I name-drop Christ like exorcists do in movies, demons and Satan will cry and pee their pants before me on behalf of Christ."
Also applicable from earlier in the chapter,
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 29, 2021 12:47:00 GMT -6
I reached out to the band Satan Destroyer regarding some of their lyrics. They were very nice, and explained to me that they're lyrics are from the perspective of Michael the Archangel. Well, that makes a little sense to a few of the song lyrics.... but it still makes no sense regarding their other lyrics.
Like the song Gorgoroth from Ov Damanation. What, did Michael the Archangel ask God to travel to the future to read fiction literature (Tolkien) and then travel back to tell Mr. Satan Destroyer about wanting to kill fictional beasts he read about? (Should I quote 2nd Timothy 4:4 again? I feel like I should quote it again.)
With the Whore of Babylon album title track representing Michael the Archangel flying over a city and shouting as loud as he can "Kill the whore!!!", sounds more like something an angsty teenager who wants to be an Archangel type superhero would say.... More than something the actual high ranking angel of the Lord would say.
Why don't these Christian war metal bands just get it over with and claim to write from the perspective of Satan? I'm sure it could be made 'technically scriptural' 'technically Christian' as well as the father of lies goes to work in some "Christian lyrics". It's not like the presence of a *RMPM or Satan and his crew would be at all alien or newly introduced to the Christian war metal genre.
I'm still waiting for someone to say, "Hey Tom, you missed this." and present to me ONE FREAKIN' PASSAGE that states (all) Christians have a green light to go offense on demons themselves. I don't know why someone just lets me keep tearing a hole in the internet about this topic, instead of just posting it. I've got a nice barbeque sauce and this hat right here that I'm going to eat as soon as someone posts it, and after digesting the hat, I'll get right to rebuking demons myself.
...but I haven't seen this "passage", and I don't know anyone else who has.
All I'm getting when I talk directly to these bands is this 1) twisting in the wind reasoning, 2) balking at what scripture really says, and of course 3) this grand pretending to know the perspective of God, angels, satan, demons as if in direct contact with their thoughts and minds.
Is a well-intentioned pseudo-ally to a Christian the same as being a Christian? Well then why do 'well-intentioned pseudo-allied to Christianity' lyrics still pass as Christian lyrics? For crying out loud, just call it SECULAR so we can all enjoy it and have a good time. I'm beyond tired of these bands that troll or water down Christian metal, because I'm going to stand up against this until my legs are numb.
*rape mention per minute
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on May 29, 2021 13:06:58 GMT -6
ONE FREAKIN' PASSAGE that states (all) Christians have a green light to go offense on demons themselves. I mentioned Luke 10:19, but you claimed it was only meant for the specific Christians that Jesus was talking to on that particular day. What reason do you have to back that up?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 29, 2021 13:19:58 GMT -6
I mentioned Luke 10:19, but you claimed it was only meant for the specific Christians that Jesus was talking to on that particular day. What reason do you have to back that up? The reasons I mentioned were because I read Luke 10. I hope it makes sense to say that the passage I'm looking for, doesn't involve just blindly taking 1 verse out of context to suit my preferences, right? What reason do you have to back up that Christ is talking about all Christians? Verse 19 indicates no injury, specifically mentioning snakes and scorpions. (EDIT: I was angry before - sorry everyone who read my completely obtuse remarks/rhetoric from before. Please, no one try to test snakes and scorpions.) What reason do you have to back up that rebuking demons in Jesus's name, is the same thing as documenting Michael the Archangel killing demons? (well, or beheading monsters from modern fiction literature) Why did Christ state not to not rejoice over demons obeying in Luke 10:20 when Christian war metal is just 1 rally after another celebrating demonic demise?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 29, 2021 16:14:52 GMT -6
1) twisting in the wind reasoning, 2) balking at what scripture really says, and of course 3) this grand pretending to know the perspective of God, angels, satan, demons as if in direct contact with their thoughts and minds. 4) Remaining conveniently silent. Because why worry about the diluting of Christian metal from scriptural adherence, when that is just not as serious as missing an album quota.
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Post by julienbakerfan on May 30, 2021 21:11:51 GMT -6
A bit of a rabbit trail, but the esteemed Dr. Wikipedia informs us that the incident that Jude refers to regarding Michael and the devil is a reference to a lost source. Given the fact that Jude heavily references the Enochian material in his epistle, it's seems to me like he's referencing another Second Temple-era tradition that would have been familiar to his readers, but unfamiliar to us.
I suspect I'll have to go back to my old answer of "What does Michael Heiser have to say about this?" When it comes to the passage about blaspheming the glorious ones. I'm sure he deals with it in one of his books, but I don't have them with me at the moment, so I can't confirm.
I just wish Chrisgian metallers would go beyond the "fight the devil" or "paraphrase a Bible verse" style of songwriting and come up with some more interesting lyrics. Take a cue from Larry Norman and start writing about social issues from a Christian perspective.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on May 31, 2021 11:08:00 GMT -6
I suspect I'll have to go back to my old answer of "What does Michael Heiser have to say about this?" When it comes to the passage about blaspheming the glorious ones. I'm sure he deals with it in one of his books, but I don't have them with me at the moment, so I can't confirm. I reviewed briefly, Heiser's book he published last year "Demons: What the Bible Really Says About the Powers of Darkness". Nothing there (in the sample I could read) about people rebuking demons. Heiser seems to think the "Satan" in Job is different than "The Real Satan" - which there is rebuttal elsewhere online. There's some interesting info about demons from the old testament. I guess English transliterations all but completely hide all the mentions of Old Testament demons. I knew about the "goat-demons" (Azazel) mentioned, but I had no idea on the "donkey centaurs" which... yeah... that's a weird one, but I'm getting off track here. I don't think Heiser would have discussed Christians personally rebuking demons before.... because who else would be obtuse enough to do that besides tryhards in Christian metal? A bit of a rabbit trail, but the esteemed Dr. Wikipedia informs us that the incident that Jude refers to regarding Michael and the devil is a reference to a lost source. Given the fact that Jude heavily references the Enochian material in his epistle, it's seems to me like he's referencing another Second Temple-era tradition that would have been familiar to his readers, but unfamiliar to us. gotquestions.org seems to share my sentiment about people rebuking demons. Second, Jude 9 is the supreme illustration of how Christians are to deal with Satan and demons. The example of Michael refusing to pronounce a curse upon Satan should be a lesson to Christians in how to relate to demonic forces. Believers are not to address them, but rather to seek the Lord’s intervening power against them. If as powerful a being as Michael deferred to the Lord in dealing with Satan, who are we to attempt to reproach, cast out, or command demons? There are several passages referenced with rebuking demons/satan on behalf of the lord. Well, that to me is quite different than someone pretending to be an angel or a demonslayer that broadcasts violence, angst or hate toward demons. Of course I would support Christian lyrics where a person rebukes satan through Jesus Christ. That's unfortunately, not what I'm seeing. I just wish Chrisgian metallers would go beyond the "fight the devil" or "paraphrase a Bible verse" style of songwriting and come up with some more interesting lyrics. Take a cue from Larry Norman and start writing about social issues from a Christian perspective. There's a million different perfectly acceptable themes and topics that wouldn't even be in scripture to be contradicted. Bottom line, if music is going to be marketed as "Christian music", it shouldn't even appear to contradict biblical teachings. ...but this fascination within Christian metal regarding personal/fantasy violence to evil spirits, is either going to lead to a major schism in the scene.... or its going to be large enough to cause a "round 2" from mainstream Christianity that "There's no such thing as Christian metal." with their evidence being scriptural teachings rejected by this sect of satan destroyers. Besides, if Dr Heiser, myself, Steve Rowe, Pastor Bob, and a gotquestions scholar all said to these bands that they're going about fighting evil the wrong way, it would do absolutely nothing. Every single band, and every single label supporting these bands would just and keep doing it anyway, and pushing the topic further anyway. Like they don't even care that Christianity's credibility is on the line, so long as they get to act cool being faux satan slayers. Its absolutely reprehensible.
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Post by julienbakerfan on May 31, 2021 21:13:46 GMT -6
Heiser seems to think the "Satan" in Job is different than "The Real Satan" - which there is rebuttal elsewhere online. I'm inclined to agree with him, but it's not a particularly pressing theological issue to me. Or in other words, it's not a spiritual priority for me. I know I mention Heiser on a regularly basis, but I really appreciate his focus on going back to the original content and context of the Bible. I've seen too many pastors and theologians who honestly just make stuff up because it sounds vaguely plausible. I don't think Heiser would have discussed Christians personally rebuking demons before.... because who else would be obtuse enough to do that besides tryhards in Christian metal? He's dealt with "deliverance ministry" and a lot of related stuff in his podcast before, so it's possible he's discussed it. this fascination within Christian metal regarding personal/fantasy violence to evil spirits, is either going to lead to a major schism in the scene.... or its going to be large enough to cause a "round 2" from mainstream Christianity that "There's no such thing as Christian metal." with their evidence being scriptural teachings rejected by this sect of satan destroyers. Is it even an issue outside of this forum, though? As far as I can tell, it only applies to a small minority of bands that play in a black metal style that doesn't even appeal to the majority of metal fans or even black metal fans. I highly doubt your average Antestor/Mortification/Extol fan is really going to dig one of these bands--much less the guy who comments "Demon Hunter" in response to every post. I have worries about the overall state of the scene, but I'm not sure that this is the most pressing issue facing Christian metal right now. Then again, I'm not a part of Christian metal Facebook anymore, so I don't know what's going on in "the scene."
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 1, 2021 8:41:06 GMT -6
I'm inclined to agree with him, but it's not a particularly pressing theological issue to me. Or in other words, it's not a spiritual priority for me. I know I mention Heiser on a regularly basis, but I really appreciate his focus on going back to the original content and context of the Bible. I've seen too many pastors and theologians who honestly just make stuff up because it sounds vaguely plausible. I think Heiser's "Satan" vs "Ha Satan" is a single solitary anomaly where "Dude, that's an amazing point!" wasn't my immediate response. I agree, its not theologically pressing to think its another evil spirit instead of another evil spirit (Satan). Others find it quite pressing, obviously, and from just a quick search, it looks like heiserheresy.com is only the tip of the iceberg. (and it seems like some people would rather focus on Heiser's "hubris" than the points he makes) As far as pastors/theologians making stuff up, I sadly agree. Out of all the sermons I sat through while in high school, the one I strangely remember the most was when an out-of-town pastor described to the youth group, hell being people put in a little box, with gasoline poured over it, and its lit on fire and you stay in that little claustrophobic burning box forever. He's dealt with "deliverance ministry" and a lot of related stuff in his podcast before, so it's possible he's discussed it. I'm only familiar with (and have followed for a while) his Fringepop321 on YouTube and what's on thedivinecounsel.com. If you stumble upon his remarks on people rebuking/reproaching satan/demons without deferring to Christ, I'd love to hear his thoughts on it. Is it even an issue outside of this forum, though? As far as I can tell, it only applies to a small minority of bands that play in a black metal style that doesn't even appeal to the majority of metal fans or even black metal fans. I highly doubt your average Antestor/Mortification/Extol fan is really going to dig one of these bands--much less the guy who comments "Demon Hunter" in response to every post. I have worries about the overall state of the scene, but I'm not sure that this is the most pressing issue facing Christian metal right now. Then again, I'm not a part of Christian metal Facebook anymore, so I don't know what's going on in "the scene." Of course this is an issue outside of this forum! Literally in (checks my phone) 13 months time, I saw the Christian equivalent of Season of Mist (I chose that larger extreme metal label as a comparison to Vision of God Records because they tote being "underground activists") go from "I'm worried" regarding the rape and violence lyrics from What Brings Ruin's discography, to "Its an attack on the false church and he 'means' desecration when he 'says' rape" because its time to open wide for another slice of Satan Destroyer pie. Duane shared with me his VoG YouTube stats for February 2021. Over 900k hours / over 27k views in 28 days time. What's the release that sent May out with a bang for the label? Satan "Kill the Whore!!!" Destroyer. (I'm pressed for analogies as I get ready for work today - a venomous snake isn't the best metaphor, but I'm rolling with it because it at least conveys the seriousness I think of this topic, even if the deadliness is an admitted exaggeration.) You walk out in the woods and encounter a venomous snake, its "Well, there are these types of snakes around, but its not like they're everywhere.". You step food outside of your apartment and there's a venomous snake in the lobby, its like, "HOW DID THAT GET IN HERE!? ARE THERE MORE ON THIS SITE SOMEWHERE!? IS THERE NO ONE WATCHING OUT FOR THIS SORT OF THING?!??!? WAS THIS LET IN INTENTIONALLY!?!?!???!???". Then come to find out, the "landlord" let "another tenant" keep his "venomous snake collection", despite telling me (another "tenant") 13 months ago, "no animals allowed". It shouldn't take Tooth and Nail releasing war metal to make Christians take seriously that Christian lyrics are slowly being replaced with a fictional anti-satanic warring ideology instead.
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Post by barabbas on Jun 4, 2021 11:07:04 GMT -6
I think this train has already left the station, but so as not to be a cricket . . .
I think there are two distinct issues: the correct theology/interpretation of the passage and the use of these images in an artistic medium. I'm agnostic about this issue because I'm not at all sure about moving from the first to the second. It seems there's a whole range of ways that theological ideas are used in artistic formats, including many metaphorical uses. In ordinary conversation, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone told me they were fighting their demons.
If perfect theology were necessary for something to be Christian metal, then there is no such thing. (Though perhaps ironically, demons might be capable of producing it!)
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 5, 2021 10:39:18 GMT -6
After talking with my wife about this topic, her vote would be that I become more of a cricket. Even though she thinks I'm right and made good points - its just, I've already plead my case, in like 5+ different online communities. Continuing to tear up the internet over this, isn't going to do anything. People who agree, agreed when they read my opening statements on this topic. The people who don't know, don't care, or disagree, 90 pages of me ranting on this every day for 3 years, won't change a single mind. (because people just don't change their mind because of someone's rant on the internet. They just don't.)
Besides, this isn't really about violence or Satan at all. My favorite genre of movie is "horror", and some of the films I enjoyed the most had a fair amount of evil, violence, Satan and more. Its violence and Satan as the meat and potatoes of "Christian" music, or a "Christian music ministry", that has me incredibly bothered. Yes, coming from my Netflix horror section, its easily fictional entertainment to enjoy. Coming from my Christian music collection, or some preacher's sermon, its alarming, concerning and more - because I can't thread fictional horror with Christian truth's needle. I just can't.
This has been the forefront of stress, worry and other mental anguish for me since the end of April this year. If I would have known that being a Christian metal artist meant the scene would eventually trend toward bands that model an entire discography after Horde's "Crush The Bloodied Horns Of The Goat" - I wouldn't have even signed up in the first place.
(edited because of a terrible attitude)
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 6, 2021 18:51:11 GMT -6
Welp.
I don't even know where to begin on how awful that last post was. Or how my behavior devolves into... this, over the course of this thread.
Jesus? Everyone? I'm sorry!
I had a good talk with Duane today. Cleared up a lot for his decisions for his release.
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Post by barabbas on Jun 7, 2021 10:31:09 GMT -6
Thomas, I was bummed that you've been so bothered and upset. I've been praying for you the past few days. Glad that it sounds like you're in a better place today. May the peace that surpasses all understanding pervade your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 7, 2021 15:10:40 GMT -6
Thomas, I was bummed that you've been so bothered and upset. I've been praying for you the past few days. Glad that it sounds like you're in a better place today. May the peace that surpasses all understanding pervade your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. Thank you. Yes, I feel considerably better. When I emailed Satan Destroyer before, I rebuked him pretty hard and he didn't respond. After talking to Duane last night, I reached out to Satan Destroyer, apologizing about my attitude toward him. We then had a decent conversation, which only affirmed more of what Duane talked about, with what's going on with him. I know this isn't the prayer request thread, but any chance you could include Duane in your prayers as well? I mean, as worked up as I've been over violent Christian metal and lyrics attacking satan and demons, he's been just as worked up over other things infiltrating Christian metal. Like, to the point of him considering stopping a Christian metal ministry. (he'll keep going though LOL just like I will!) That said, I feel kind of silly attacking what's discussed in this thread, when uh.... there's uh... worse... things trying to present themselves as Christian metal. (a number of years ago, Duane would "interview" 10 bands, and 9 of them would end up being accepted. His last 35 "interviews" for bands to do their release through VoG, he ended up only proceeding with 3 of them.... then fired one after they became belligerent and Duane had to block them... so 2 out of the last 35 that interviewed. Lots of crazy CRAZY stuff that people try to pass off as "Christian". Its downright mind-blowing.)
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