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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 27, 2015 10:00:52 GMT -6
Let me preface by saying I'm not trying to rock the boat, and this certainly isn't directed toward any one person. This actually involves over 20 people, most of which aren't even here, but it might explain why the Christian black metal scene isn't growing? I'd be interested to know what the rest of the family thinks of what happened here: theblackestlight.freeforums.net/post/2099/threadYou're not expected to speak for yourself if you are involved with this scenario directly (and some of you are, and you'll know you are when you read it) so please don't feel the need to defend yourself. I'm just looking for theories on the big picture of why this happened on a grand scale - with so many people. Again, this isn't targeted toward any one person. ____________________________ Now, this thread is from the Spirit of Anonymity section and is password protected / it has its own password. If you're not logged in / don't have an account, it will just inform you that you don't have permission to view the post. As stated here, I'd be happy to give the password for this forum to anyone who's made 10 posts or more. (even if it was as a guest) The reason I didn't just move the entire thread is because it still contains something that I don't want to be public knowledge (even though that "secret" is a good thing). I didn't just quote the one post that link sends you too because it wouldn't make complete sense without the rest of the thread. The reason I'm referencing this on the main forum is because it needs the attention of the family here, hoping that - those who do have access will be more inclined to read it and - those interested would be more inclined to ask for the password. Feedback please.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 12:50:29 GMT -6
I've already stated my opinion on all of this in the Spirit of Anonymity, but considering that no one else has responded to this and Thomas posted it over 2 hours ago, I'll go ahead and restate what I said before.
If a band/project emails a store, the store should try to respond if they can rather than just never getting back to the person. If our scene could learn to communicate better, I think we could grow a lot more.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 27, 2015 14:50:56 GMT -6
I'll expound on what Crimson Warrior stated without blowing the whistle completely. Here's the three-sentence version of what happened.
I completed (in secret) a full length Christian black metal album under a new/different project name, and contacted 29 "businesses" (23 stores, 6 radio stations) in regards to stores (carrying) / radio stations (playing) the new album. I contacted anonymously from a different e-mail account and didn't announce myself as "Mr. Ankou Awaits just finished a Christian black metal CD". One business week later, 3 stores and 1 radio station have actually RESPONDED.
That's the explanation, now here's the situation.
The concern isn't whether or not stores are/aren't buying the release, (though I will say I have sold more of these Christian Black Metal CDs in 2 days than I have for Sobrwydd a Disgyblaeth since its been out, which shows an amazing individual customer demand)
...my concern is that 5+ days and counting, less than 15% of the e-mails sent to BUSINESSES that deal in Christian black metal merchandise were even REPLIED TO. As a whole, (not individually - I'm not singling anyone out) it wreaks of lack of interest, lack of communication/organization and why this scene can't leave the graveyard. Why would Christian black metal bloom if most stores/labels/radio stations don't even TALK to new bands?
...or stores/radio stations take longer than a business week to reply to a dang e-mail?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 4:34:46 GMT -6
Can only speak for myself and... Like I said some time ago, I get mails from bands quite regularly, that want me to check out their music. While this is cool in general (honestly!) I'm running No Sleep in my free time and the priority is - of course - handling orders (and answering questions related to orders) and working on new releases. So listening to new bands might take a few days or even a few weeks - depends on how much free time I have. Besides, I understand that it can be frustrating if you have put much energy in creating music, contact labels and then...nothing happens. On the other hand that's (at least from my point of view) just how it is in general, not only with Christian bm. And: I've experienced it a few times now, that musicians stopped replying in cases when everything had already been planned and they just had to send the music (or artwork files), so that I could start working on the release. Coincidentally all of this projects were from the Christian bm scene...
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 28, 2015 7:16:28 GMT -6
I completely understand that a label's priority would be fulfilling orders and answering questions, more so than getting new stock. This isn't really about that though. It makes perfect sense to me how it would take a week or two to get around to actually listening to the stuff - it doesn't take a week or two to REPLY to an e-mail.
Communication is very separate from fulfillment, and SHOULD be a higher priority, in my opinion. Lets say an order/shipment confirmation was "forgotten". (whether by the label or Big Cartel, doesn't matter) If the merchandise is in fact on its way, but the customer doesn't know it because that hasn't been communicated to them - does the customer automatically assume their order has been fulfilled?
No - they haven't heard. For all a customer would know, not hearing anything could mean that the order wasn't received or that the store hasn't sent it yet. Only the very presumptuous would interpret no response as a "yes".
Here's the communication example that ties exactly to what this thread is referring to.
To the e-mail I sent on a Monday, Sky Burns Black records responded on Saturday with a very generous offer to help the project. To the e-mail I sent on a Monday, Vision of God Records replies on a Monday with 2 sentences. (paraphrasing) "I got your e-mail. I'll check it out later." ...and then e-mailed back "later" to state they weren't interested.
Neither label had listened to the music Monday, but I had an understanding that "someone was there" at Vision of God "that day".
While Sky Burns Black ultimately was more interested as of now... I could only conclude as of Friday evening (4 days had passed and I had no e-mail) that they weren't interested or didn't get the e-mail. It doesn't take even 1 minute to type "I got your e-mail. I'll check it out later." and press "send". Every store being run on free time can borrow 1 minute from somewhere in ONE DAY or TWO DAYS.
Does that make sense?
In closing, my little rant here isn't about Sky Burns Black, Vision of God, Ulterium Records or The Cross Stream Radio. They're solid. I know what they think because we've communicated.
Its about the 25 other "businesses" who, day 6 and counting, still haven't responded. I have no idea what to conclude because I haven't heard. Will they ever respond? Or am I going to be completely surprised when they do respond next week?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:04:10 GMT -6
It doesn't take even 1 minute to type "I got your e-mail. I'll check it out later." and press "send". Every store being run on free time can borrow 1 minute from somewhere in ONE DAY or TWO DAYS. Does that make sense? Yes, I can relate to that point of view - it's just not mine (in terms of the next sentence ---> ). When I contact bands asking for releases or labels asking for a trade I - sometimes - have to wait for days or weeks to get an answer, too (because they are busy with their regular jobs, with other trades etc). If I'm very interested in something, I'd naturally prefer to get a quick reply, but on the other hand it's no problem for me any other way. I honestly don't feel like it's a real problem for me or for the 'scene'. Even in those cases I described before (musicians suddenly stopping to reply while you're already planning the release) I simply forget about the whole thing or - if I'm in the right mood - just ask again if they're still interested. The difference to what you said about customers waiting for information about their orders is that I truly owe them this information. I've sold them something and they've paid for it. At least for me that's something very different from the situation when someone is contacting me in order to 'sell' (in one way or another) his stuff. And there are really much more people out there who try to sell something to a label than there are people who are buying something.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:50:47 GMT -6
This really is news to me. I have heard very little of this project and in fact my only knowledge of it is from CMR posts. I have not as of yet taken the time to check it out. As far as emails or submissions to play from this I haven't received one. I even went back and checked through my email address in all folders including spam and trash folders. I do get a lot of Satanic bands want to be on the label or on radio play. I can honestly say that I do feel it would be harder to sell an album without at least cover art. I know for me personally I love that stuff. I remember buying a cd from a now defunct label and it came without a traycard, once I finally got it WEEKS after I ordered, and I was very disappointed in it. It is not impossible to sell like that but I don't know how much some would be willing to pay for it either. Since you mentioned the trusted Stores all got contacted I assume that you sent one to me as well but I have scoured my whole email site and have no record of it whatsoever and I am very sorry if you felt slighted by an ignore as that is never intended. I can say that I can't respond to something I never receive however. I am always interested in getting new material for the store, which is why at the moment I not only can't add more but why I am desperate for sales as well, as I went overboard in bringing new stuff to the store, and three titles of which after nearly a month have not made it here yet. I am sorry if you feel slighted and I am sorry that I didn't respond but as I said I never got anything on this that I can find anywhere.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 28, 2015 11:20:10 GMT -6
I honestly don't feel like it's a real problem for me or for the 'scene'. Even in those cases I described before (musicians suddenly stopping to reply while you're already planning the release) I simply forget about the whole thing or - if I'm in the right mood - just ask again if they're still interested. The difference to what you said about customers waiting for information about their orders is that I truly owe them this information. I've sold them something and they've paid for it. At least for me that's something very different from the situation when someone is contacting me in order to 'sell' (in one way or another) his stuff. And there are really much more people out there who try to sell something to a label than there are people who are buying something. I can agree that inefficient communication/response times are not "the" problem in Christian black metal, but its not a non-issue either. I imagine that hundreds of e-mails a week from artists coming to you with "Buy this! Buy this!" gets old and could be considered occasionally as a waste of time. Likewise, I hope you understand that when an artists spends (time) hours and hours and hours working on producing something they had to spend (money) to record (whether per session at a studio or a lump sum for equipment/software) that a non-answer to a communication is MUCH worse than a communicated decline. The long of the short of it is, a Christian metal artist (for all intents and purposes) is not owed/entitled a response from a record company, music store or radio station in regards to the solicitation of their project. ...but that store, record company, radio station shouldn't be surprised when artist(s) perceive them as inconsiderate, unorganized, "not there", disinterested, etc. when there's not even a basic "1 minute" acknowledgement to their inquiry after a business week. Even more so, the fact that steps could easily be implemented to reduce solicitation / improve communication only adds to the frustration when they aren't taken. As far as emails or submissions to play from this I haven't received one. I even went back and checked through my email address in all folders including spam and trash folders. I e-mailed your yahoo account. (the one that you have listed as your contact e-mail in your profile here) I resent that e-mail. I hope you get it! Larry, I don't feel that you or any one store has slighted me, or is "rude" for not e-mailing. I completely believe you that you didn't respond because you didn't get the e-mail, for whatever reason. Its not any one store, or one person or even the very act of one "no-response" that draws attention. ...its the shear VOLUME of "no-responses" involved here. Out of 29 e-mails that I sent, I did NOT expect that only 4 people after 1 week would even RESPOND back, regardless of what they said. Its like ordering a pizza, not liking black olives and the pizza arrives with a handful of black olives on it. Its not a big deal, pick them off or whatever and still eat the pizza. Don't even think twice about it. If the pizza arrives and its COVERED - there's more black olives on it than cheese or sauce, then it becomes apparent that there's an issue with this pizza. Not the best analogy, but it certainly metaphors this scenario.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 14:06:45 GMT -6
I honestly don't feel like it's a real problem for me or for the 'scene'. Even in those cases I described before (musicians suddenly stopping to reply while you're already planning the release) I simply forget about the whole thing or - if I'm in the right mood - just ask again if they're still interested. The difference to what you said about customers waiting for information about their orders is that I truly owe them this information. I've sold them something and they've paid for it. At least for me that's something very different from the situation when someone is contacting me in order to 'sell' (in one way or another) his stuff. And there are really much more people out there who try to sell something to a label than there are people who are buying something. I can agree that inefficient communication/response times are not "the" problem in Christian black metal, but its not a non-issue either. I imagine that hundreds of e-mails a week from artists coming to you with "Buy this! Buy this!" gets old and could be considered occasionally as a waste of time. Likewise, I hope you understand that when an artists spends (time) hours and hours and hours working on producing something they had to spend (money) to record (whether per session at a studio or a lump sum for equipment/software) that a non-answer to a communication is MUCH worse than a communicated decline. The long of the short of it is, a Christian metal artist (for all intents and purposes) is not owed/entitled a response from a record company, music store or radio station in regards to the solicitation of their project. ...but that store, record company, radio station shouldn't be surprised when artist(s) perceive them as inconsiderate, unorganized, "not there", disinterested, etc. when there's not even a basic "1 minute" acknowledgement to their inquiry after a business week. Even more so, the fact that steps could easily be implemented to reduce solicitation / improve communication only adds to the frustration when they aren't taken. Like I wrote before, it's not the way I look at other labels or bands; I don't mind if they need some time to reply. If an artist thinks of my label, for example, as "inconsiderate" because of not replying to a release or wholesale request within a certain time: so be it. Different minds, different opinions.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 28, 2015 15:13:45 GMT -6
True. Different experience(s), different opinions too. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this view Kai.
On a separate note, I probably reply to stuff that I shouldn't. Doing just that lead me to being scammed out of my job/personal information...
...I've also had some contacts not go away once they found an efficiently corresponding person on the other end.
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Post by blake on Jun 29, 2015 7:29:20 GMT -6
I wasnt able to view that board so I'm not 100% sure what this is about, but based on what I read here it sounds like some stores didnt relpy to emails about stocking/playing Ankou Awaits.
If this is correct I can say I had the same problem when trying to sell copies of my Repossession Christian compilation to various stores. I never received a response of email declining the offer from a single one of the stores. Although Soundmass came to me and worked quite well (although I understand you had a very different experience from mine).
With MBR I try to reply to all emails in a timely manner, but I have to admit there are some emails I do not bother replying too. These however are the emails I get requesting from like Rap and R&B artists wanting me to play their music on Metal Blessing Radio...Since they dont take the time to read the word "metal" in the radio station name I typically never reply to those since I get ALOT of emails from artists that are not even close to metal. If the email appears that the person actually sat down and typed the email personally I will usually reply and let them know I cant play it, but most of them are obvious template emails.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 7:58:14 GMT -6
Blake, you can access the Spirit of Anonymity, you just need the password. PM Thomas for it.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 29, 2015 8:17:13 GMT -6
I did a release from a project separate from Ankou Awaits. Ankou Awaits isn't a Christian project, its more or less warrior/Welsh mythology, but non-offensive. Its good secular metal for Christians, if they're interested in that. (some are, some aren't)
No, I did something different - different name, different style. Something that has VERY Christian lyrics.
Looks like Larry wasn't the only one who didn't get an e-mail? Blake, I sent you one Monday as well - to the e-mail you have listed on your member account here.
I just now sent you a follow up. Hopefully you got that one? (you should be able to see the time stamp on the reply as to when I sent the original)
Maybe I'm here harping about people not replying to their e-mail and there's something wrong with this new e-mail account? That wouldn't be fair of me if people didn't actually get it...
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Post by blake on Jun 29, 2015 9:42:46 GMT -6
I did a release from a project separate from Ankou Awaits. Ankou Awaits isn't a Christian project, its more or less warrior/Welsh mythology, but non-offensive. Its good secular metal for Christians, if they're interested in that. (some are, some aren't) No, I did something different - different name, different style. Something that has VERY Christian lyrics. Looks like Larry wasn't the only one who didn't get an e-mail? Blake, I sent you one Monday as well - to the e-mail you have listed on your member account here. I just now sent you a follow up. Hopefully you got that one? (you should be able to see the time stamp on the reply as to when I sent the original) Maybe I'm here harping about people not replying to their e-mail and there's something wrong with this new e-mail account? That wouldn't be fair of me if people didn't actually get it... I got both emails. I had the first one flagged but I hadnt gotten a free chance to sit down and give it a good read/reply. Since I tend to be constantly tied up with my job or kid I typically try to catch up on emails during my monday night shows. I apologize for the delay, sometimes I flag these for followup and then a flood of emails bumps them down
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Post by Kerrick on Jun 29, 2015 12:43:36 GMT -6
I feel this could be due to a number of reasons. But before I say anything else, I will preface this with the fact that it's not right and a frustrating tragedy. That being said... 1. Like Blake mentioned in the thread in the general section, people are busy. I'm in front of the computer all day at work and can very easily stay on top of my emails most days. Most people don't have jobs/lives that allow for that and most (if not all) of these labels and radios are run by people who have full-time day jobs. Add to that family, and you don't have a whole ton of time to respond. Should they be running a label/distro/radio if they can't run it "properly"? That's up for debate. 2. It seems like most stores and labels are flooded with requests. Taking into account #1, it could take them weeks to respond properly. Now, a quick "thanks for your request and I'll check it out soon" would be nice and respectful, but maybe they just want to reply in full all at once. I dunno. It seems like they should send SOME sort of acknowledgment, but I can see people waiting until they catch up on old requests first, before they even open new emails. 3. Not to make any stereotypical assumptions... but I'm going to anyways. By and large, musicians aren't exactly known for being the most dependable/organized people on the planet. And I'd venture to say most of these places are run by musicians. Does that make it ok? Certainly not. But I think it's important to have realistic expectations - else you will live an exceedingly frustrated life. I place a very high value/priority on punctuality because I think it is extremely rude to be late and keep your friend/whoever waiting. And yet, I have many friends who are always late. It's hard for me to not be frustrated with them. But no matter what I do, it's not going to change them and their selfishness (because ultimately, that's what it is). I have found that setting my expectations appropriately [low] for people has given me a great sense of peace. It's unfortunate that it should ever come to that and perhaps it's throwing in the towel, but I see it as being realistic. 4. It's a great risk for distros to buy albums that they have no idea if/when they're going to sell. So if it's a new and unknown project, the label has the most to lose (unless it's under a consignment deal, which has already been discussed in another thread). Like Larry mentioned with SGR, he can't stock any more music in his store until he sells some first. As someone who regularly browses various distros, I can tell you that the same albums have been there for YEARS and still aren't selling even at $5 a piece - and good music too. Again, this is not how it should be, but it's possible that assuming the owners are already overwhelmed with other requests, that they may prioritize lowly a new/unknown project that they judge as being less marketable. Anyways, these are just a few theories as to WHY this is as it is. I am NOT saying any of this SHOULD be how it is or is at all ok/right/moral. Just some thoughts... p.s. where do you want this discussion: in here on in the public section?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 29, 2015 20:14:14 GMT -6
I moved the post Kerrick. Regarding point #1, I'm not any less busy than anyone else. I spend time with family, I have chores. I feel like I'm actually spending more hours a day looking for work than I was actually working. (I know you didn't say I wasn't busy, I was just pointing out that amidst my full life, I'm still punctual with my response times. I value 24-48 hour e-mail response times so I project that on everyone.) The best way to fix lack of communication is with communication. If someone posted a disclaimer saying that it will take weeks to respond, then it sets exceptions. When people have only a blank form to fill out with no notices, then it really gets the wheels turning on who really prioritizes new contacts more or who is more punctual when some people respond, and some don't. I've tried to put myself on the other side of the fence and I just find myself solving this by working around the need to even communicate. Example, if I had a hypothetical label, I'd set aside a different form, or at least a "tell us about your band" dropdown... and have Outlook (any modern mail client should be able to do this too) send them an auto-response saying "Hey got your e-mail, it may be X number of days/weeks/etc. before I'll have the chance to check it out." What you mentioned in #3, I've got a friend EXACTLY like that and to this day, it still drives me crazy. I think the first few times he said he was on his way over and then the next time I see him is 3 days later when he just shows up, it was almost a source of contention. ...but now, I literally do not expect him to show up unless I actually see him pull up. Even with the inverted expectations, it still gets under my skin. I think the only thing I don't have a genuine grasp on is exactly how many new band inquiries come in to labels. When I was talking to Moribund for Ankou Awaits, he said that he gets 50 new band inquiries A DAY and won't set aside the time to listen to a band online. ...and he still responded to my e-mail in two days. Again, trying to put myself on the other side of the fence, if all the inquiries were getting under my skin or I really didn't want new releases, then I would put a disclaimer stating "Not accepting new bands at this time. If you solicit your project, it will not be responded to". The bottom line is, there's an EASY time-friendly fix for the lack of communication in every situation I can come up with. I don't think anyone has to have the skills to answer all e-mails in two days to improve their communication and prevent something like this from happening entirely.
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Post by Kerrick on Jun 30, 2015 17:45:11 GMT -6
Indeed. Hopefully by discussing these things, a greater level of awareness - and therefore accountability - will be had...
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 30, 2015 18:33:52 GMT -6
In the meantime, going forward, I'll try my best not to have a maximum level of butthurt if I don't get responses/a response in X number of days past my expectations.
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