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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 15, 2015 13:47:36 GMT -6
I know there several of our members (including myself) are members at The Christian Metal Realm and Kerrick is a moderator there. (as well) [vampire]
I was really surprised how staff (most likely Karam Karam?) handled a recent situation at the CMR.
Someone made a post entitled "Proposal for Arttie" stating that Karam Karam had no right to delete posts just because they went off topic. "Only posts that broke the rules should be deleted" Apparently a good Stryper thread was going that was deleted because multiple members went off topic.
He requested that it be a group decision before anything is deleted and also stated that he's been there since 2002 and would leave if this kept happening. Makes sense. I wouldn't have gone about it the same way, but I didn't entirely disagree with what he was saying, and I remarked on that.
...so what happens? That "Proposal for Arttie" thread GETS DELETED. ______________________________
What makes a forum is its members and to me, I couldn't imagine something to antagonize that member more than to delete the post where he requested that no more posts get deleted. Again, I was really surprised and almost offended for the guy.
I would think staff members there would take actions to MINIMIZE drama or invoking negative emotions from members. ...but it seems the level of drama there just keeps growing and growing. ______________________________
Anyone have any thoughts regarding this, or, how a forum should be "moderated" in general?
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Post by Kerrick on Jul 15, 2015 18:41:00 GMT -6
I have many thoughts... ??? [coffee] I agree, the situation was not handled as well as it could have; he shouldn't have just deleted those comments. That being said, I was keeping a close eye on that thread and it wasn't this profound and polite discussion. Basically it started out as a "so who's going to buy the new Stryper album?" thread and then one user accused Michael of Stryper (who is a member there and started the thread) of being a hypocrite for doing a Van Halen cover song with some innuendos or something (I read the lyrics; I'm not sure what the big fuss was about). It turned into this giant holier-than-thou discussion that was teetering on getting real ugly. I'll give Michael some kudos for not getting as defensive as I may have expected but instead he handled it with maturity and calmness - which helped the situation immensely. A ton of topics stray from their original intent and we just let them be. I don't know, but I'm guessing Karam chose that one to alter due to its contents. Also, we had had some other users complain to us about that thread specifically. In hindsight, he should have probably either just locked it or split it into two threads. Karam had originally locked that user's complaint thread but I suggested he keep it open so we could all have a discussion about it. But instead of people discussing maturely and respectfully, it turned into a whining/bitching fest and so another moderator locked it and moved it to where only mods can access it. I support that decision as it was only poisonous to the community at large at that point, unfortunately and frustratingly. If the members had acted halfway maturely or respectfully, that thread would still be up. If anyone cares that much about it, I can give you the transcripts of the "whining" thread. As I stated in that thread, the mods really don't have any protocols to follow with such things; it's up to our discretion. I'm seeking to remedy that so we have a little more consistency. Also, Karam's got a LOT on his plate right now in his personal life. He needs to be cut some slack IMO. He's a good mod and cares deeply about the community. I agree, he got a bit defensive when everyone attacked him, but I can't blame him for that. As for how a forum should be moderated? It totally depends on the users. Here, we have all very easy-going and respectful users. Very little needs to be done and therefore we have the freedom to let things evolve on their own. On CMR, we have a plethora (Three Amigos, anyone?) of very difficult users who IMO are pretty far removed from reality. It requires a lot of attention. I get complaints there via PM ALL THE TIME from users about threads going off-topic, getting butt-hurt over something someone said, not enough policing of the forums, too much policing of the forums... you name it. Minimizing drama there is a full-time job haha. I'm constantly PM'ing folks, mediating between folks, etc. In terms of moderating threads, my general stance is to let things be unless they're inappropriate. I RARELY delete anything - unless it's a spam-bot or the like. Sometimes I'll delete a post if it's a personal attack against someone, etc. but that's about it. All that to say, was that situation handled perfectly? No. Could the mods have done something differently? Yes. Could some of the other users acted differently? Definitely. Is it really that big of a deal? I argue not. It's not like it's a pattern that is happening constantly. It was one isolated incident that got blown out of proportion. That doesn't make it right, but that also doesn't make it ok to attack Karam as folks did. Ok I'm done for now. [burp]
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 20:13:43 GMT -6
I will say that there are several users over there who PURPOSELY make it their goal to cause issues. At least that is how I view it. I sometimes get riled up over there due to some of it but not to the point of the main troublemakers.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 15, 2015 20:27:21 GMT -6
I guess I don't understand why these several members "removed from reality" (we talked about one of these before too) aren't just "given a vacation". (I heard one of the mods call it that with a temporary ban) I know things are laid back here, but nothing's stopping someone from coming in and starting a bunch of fires. [flush] Wait, one of the guys FROM Stryper made this thread and someone tried to pick a fight with him? I thought everyone there would lynch someone if they said they didn't like Stryper. Man, it sounds like its worse there than I thought. I used to have the login Hguols on the CMR but some mod (who, in my opinion, stalked my posts) perma banned me with no warning because I disagreed with most of the forum about gay marriage. Can't reference the posts/thread because... it was deleted. Did alldatndensum used to be a mod? For some reason, I want to say it was him wielding the ban hammer. Totally get that unruly members happen there and that thread probably turned to trash. I'm just glad I don't have to make a global announcement to tell people how to act. (Rules) ....but staff should be more accountable than regular members because of their permissions. If I up and deleted the "Equipment" thread here with no notice because I don't think mic'ing a tube amp sounds better, I wouldn't want someone to just excuse what I did because I've been stressed looking for work. That enabling would only hurt me. If anything, I need to be held MORE accountable than regular members, because of my access and permissions here. Just my two cents. ...not that I'm captain knows-everything-about-forums/life because I started this one 6 months ago.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 15, 2015 20:56:53 GMT -6
See, I don't get this. thecmr.forumotion.com/t8150-new-stryper-album#154579thecmr.forumotion.com/t8150-new-stryper-album#155100He prompts them to get back on topic several times. ...but I don't understand how they get off topic? Was it MikeInFla's comment about his wife? DIG's joke about metal Abba covers? That's wound pretty tight to tell the room to get back on track if that's all that was said. Also, Karam Karam INVITES people to create a new topic if they're upset about the deleted thread! thecmr.forumotion.com/t8150-new-stryper-album#155112...then he deletes it? Wow. Kerrick, I have to say I thank God you are a consistent and level headed poster. The CMR is BLESSED to have you as a leader there. I need to switch gears about KK though. If he were here doing that, I'd rip out his permissions faster than you could say, "President Nixon showed Jackie Gleason alien bodies that were cryogenically frozen at Wright Patterson Air Force base and it bothered him so much that he didn't eat for like... a whole meal and he told his wife and she told everyone." Seriously.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 12:35:05 GMT -6
lol Alien bodies. Man I have absolutely NO belief in aliens. May God have put human life on another planet somewhere in the universe, YES I believe that he most likely did. But there is no way he would allow them to come in contact with any other planet he put humans on. Just my opinion. But aliens as far as what this planet considers aliens? NO Those are not real. I believe that people HAVE seen SOMETHING. or maybe even been abducted by SOMETHING and it is called a demon/fallen angel. I mean that is where Nephilim come from IMO. So Nixon may have shown Gleason a Demon but not an alien. lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 12:35:42 GMT -6
Yes I just knocked this off topic lol. CMR just has a lot of trolls on it just like youtube and other places.
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Post by Kerrick on Jul 16, 2015 13:21:51 GMT -6
Prepare to have your posts deleted Larry. [candy]
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Post by Kerrick on Jul 16, 2015 14:02:37 GMT -6
I guess I don't understand why these several members "removed from reality" (we talked about one of these before too) aren't just "given a vacation". (I heard one of the mods call it that with a temporary ban) I know things are laid back here, but nothing's stopping someone from coming in and starting a bunch of fires. [flush] Wait, one of the guys FROM Stryper made this thread and someone tried to pick a fight with him? I thought everyone there would lynch someone if they said they didn't like Stryper. Man, it sounds like its worse there than I thought. I used to have the login Hguols on the CMR but some mod (who, in my opinion, stalked my posts) perma banned me with no warning because I disagreed with most of the forum about gay marriage. Can't reference the posts/thread because... it was deleted. Did alldatndensum used to be a mod? For some reason, I want to say it was him wielding the ban hammer. Totally get that unruly members happen there and that thread probably turned to trash. I'm just glad I don't have to make a global announcement to tell people how to act. (Rules) ....but staff should be more accountable than regular members because of their permissions. If I up and deleted the "Equipment" thread here with no notice because I don't think mic'ing a tube amp sounds better, I wouldn't want someone to just excuse what I did because I've been stressed looking for work. That enabling would only hurt me. If anything, I need to be held MORE accountable than regular members, because of my access and permissions here. Just my two cents. ...not that I'm captain knows-everything-about-forums/life because I started this one 6 months ago. We've discussed temporary bans. The trouble is, most of the problem folks just don't get it... I've worked with many users one-on-one via PM to try to get them to understand the concepts of posting in manners that are respectful and non-accusatory/instigating-of-trouble. With the exception of one or two users, those folks do not intend on coming off as they do. And yet somehow... they're always at the center of problems. The thing is, they're not breaking any rules, nor could we even make a rule other than, "don't be divisive." It'd be much easier to just ban the ones that cause any disturbances/make waves (as it seems was done to you perhaps?), but I just don't think that's right... I agree, the staff should be held to a higher standard, just like pastors at a church. But even pastors mess up from time to time. This was one isolated incident. As I said, if it becomes a patter, the mods will have to take action. But Karam and I have been mods for years now and this is the first time he's done anything like this. And I assume that after this all cools down, he is NOT going to do it again. (Yup, Alldat was a mod a while ago. He's much less of a pushover than I am haha.)
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Post by Kerrick on Jul 16, 2015 14:04:03 GMT -6
Kerrick, I have to say I thank God you are a consistent and level headed poster. The CMR is BLESSED to have you as a leader there. Thanks Thomas.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 16, 2015 20:17:36 GMT -6
LOL That will never get old!
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Post by blake on Jul 17, 2015 6:52:08 GMT -6
I didnt follow the topic too much. But it was my assumption that it was deleted to prevent a major blow up similar to the one with Ted from Tourniquet recently when people started badgering him about his lyrics. Since Michael Sweet was involved in the thread.
Then again I could be completely wrong
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Post by Kerrick on Jul 17, 2015 10:00:09 GMT -6
LOL That will never get old! What won't get old, kissing me? (puke) I didnt follow the topic too much. But it was my assumption that it was deleted to prevent a major blow up similar to the one with Ted from Tourniquet recently when people started badgering him about his lyrics. Since Michael Sweet was involved in the thread. Then again I could be completely wrong That's a pretty apt comparison; it was very similar and looking like it was going that way...
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 17, 2015 11:06:21 GMT -6
LOL That will never get old! What won't get old, kissing me? (puke) HAHAHA!!! I seriously laugh every time I read something on this! That's so wrong, its hilarious! Reminds me of 1:38 of this video.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 20:28:42 GMT -6
I’ve tried to become a poster on CMR several times, but it’s just really difficult for me. I guess it’s because most of the music discussed there is more “classic” than the stuff I tend to listen to (though I do love old thrash, so I don’t know) and so I tend to not be able to find enough stuff to talk about to keep me coming back every day. Anyway, I have modded and admin-ed on a couple fairly biggish boards. I never deleted anything other than spam or porn attacks. In a case like this I would have locked the thread but left it. I tell you though, being an admin / moderator is an absolutely thankless job, you just can NOT win at it. Anything you do is going to piss someone off, and temporary banning is literally just a temporary vacation for the mods because when the person comes back they will be exactly the same way that they were before … they didn’t learn anything, they aren’t going to change, because in their mind they never did anything wrong at all. The people they are arguing with were the ones that needed to go, and the moderator was the one in the wrong … also the admins, up to and including the owner of the board. Everyone but them, EVERYONE in the entire forum are the ones in the wrong, and they always will be! Being a moderator is in some ways much worse than being an admin too, because no one takes you seriously. They are just middle management and no one needs to listen to THEM, just go over their heads to the admins. And what’s worse is when it works! When there is a special member that is a friend of the owner, or the owner just likes them / feels sorry for them / whatever and they are basically allowed to run rampant around the forum, pissing everyone off and breaking rules. Do I sound bitter about that last part? Because I sure hope I do. A situation like that is exactly why I quit being a mod at the last forum I did it at, I made up my mind to never do it again, and I have not. Weirdest thing I ever saw a moderator do was when I was an admin at a Christian punk forum. We decided it had gotten too big for the three of us admins to handle and we decided to appoint some moderators. This one kid reallllllly wanted to be a mod, and that should have been the first sign that he should not have been allowed to be one, but he was anyway. Within his first few minutes of moderatorness he deleted every thread in his assigned form. EVERYTHING! He wanted to “start fresh” or something like that. Needless to say he was de-modded immediately. The thing I did as an admin that pissed certain people off the most. The “Introductions” subforum somehow got taken over by this little clique of truly obnoxious, flirty teenagers. Nothing was on topic and everything was getting quite “risqué”. I locked every thread in the subforum and told the group to go post in “Discussions” like everyone else and to knock it off with the flirting. Oooohhhh, they were maaaaad. I can just imagine all the eyerolling and “Whateverrrrrr”s that were being done around the country. Funniest thing I ever saw as an admin. A couple of the guys from the punk board decided they were too hardcore for our poppy punk little forum, and they started their own. We were all still on good terms though and I, along with all the other admins were also members of Forum 2. Eventually, like a year later some of the newer members of Forum 2 decided Forum 1 (which they didn’t realise was actually the original parent-forum of Forum 2) was lame and stupid and not hardcore enough, because there were threads about MxPx and such, so they invaded! Only they planned this whole invasion in public on Forum 2, which I was a charter member of. I watched the entire thing, I saw them publicly post the names they were signing up under, I saw all the stuff they were planning on saying and doing to disrupt the forum. I was laughing my head off as I banned the invaders immediately after they signed up. They were publicly posting things like “HOW DO THEY KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING??”. Eventually they gave up and the owner of Forum 1 told the owner of Forum 2 what happened and he promptly scolded the heck out of the members who were involved. It was the most hilarious “forum raid” I had ever seen in my life. I have so many admin / mod stories.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 18, 2015 9:48:10 GMT -6
I enjoyed reading this before I went to bed last night. Sounds like you've got quite a bit of experience, and stories! I certainly don't expect any recognition. The way I look at it, I saw a need so I took action (started this place) but its not mine. I'd like to think of myself as the "trusted servant" - someone who has the keys to something that's "ours". I'm with you regarding the CMR, but this phenomenon isn't limited to there. Here is a "formula" that was coined after a 2004 Unreal Tournament that absolutely applies to many (from my experience) forums: Sorry for the "dickwad" term - but that's actually better than what it was originally called. HAHA!!! While this formula explains what's happening, it doesn't really explain the behavior. I'm no human psychology pro, but I've often wondered if there's a level of narcissism (seeing others on the forums more as interacting objects instead of people) or a form of solipsism (not really comprehending as other posters as being "real" with "real" consequences) with those who misbehave the most. Recapping what both of you said (Kerrick and hezekiah st. raven) I think when members have been given enough sheets to make their bed, NOT perma-banning them is a great disservice to those who 1) follow the rules and 2) contribute something other than chaos to the community. I think the community concept is sometimes overlooked by leaders, and the forum is instead seen as a group of single individuals. I think if there was a greater sense of empathy to how this behavior effected other members (whether or not mods were irritated by it), there would be more action taken. _________________________ In terms of experience, the absolute WORST and out of control forum behavior I've seen was on the Dark Souls 2 forum on gamefaqs.com - EVERY thread ended up being very trollish with little to no respect. On top of that, it was surprising how contagious the behavior was. When I posted there, I started to become what I disliked. I just happened to break one prick down only to find out that he was a 14 year old kid struggling with his schoolwork. That put into perspective that I have no place interacting to that level with people more than half my age. ....so I left.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 6, 2015 12:09:03 GMT -6
10 posts from this thread were moved. This was done because those posts were: - better suited under its own title - better suited in the Spirit of Anonymity
Let me know if you have questions!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 23, 2015 11:07:10 GMT -6
I'm really resenting that place there. There just needs to be an entire board clensing...
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 23, 2015 14:34:58 GMT -6
Hahaha well I'm *this* close to locking that thread... And if I wasn't a mod, I probably would've chimed in with my thoughts on the matter too but I don't want to further derail that thread...
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 23, 2015 20:35:28 GMT -6
I understand disagreements like this. I don't understand not offering evidence why, and instead attacking the person with a different view. ...and its always a mob. I rarely see 1on1. It's always a gank squad blindsiding an individual.
Honestly, I feel like that place really brings the worse out of me. ...and its strangely addicting because I don't want to just leave the room of wolves. I seriously want to lurk and psychologically damage those jerks by giving them a taste of their own medicine.
I know that's not right... but it's how I feel...
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Post by kimmo on Sept 24, 2015 4:03:20 GMT -6
I only read the original post here by Thomas cos I am feeling lazy but that seems silly to say the least. Also, I do not like the fact that you have to have a certain postcount until you can post personal messages or even link your e-mail. I have not seen such a rule in any other forums I have been. Maybe there is a good reason behind this rule, but to me it is just annoying. I registered there only to sell or buy stuff cos I already registed here and I do not have time to write all the forums in the world.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 4:41:49 GMT -6
I had the same experience as Kimmo. I mostly registered just to use the buy/sell forum, so it was weird having to ask someone to PM their email to me so we could actually communicate.
I lurk on the forums a bit, and I will say, I don't really know which thread Thomas is referring to in his latest post in this thread.
If there's gonna be a "board cleansing", I think they need a change of topic as well. Half the threads are about Stryper!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 24, 2015 5:58:28 GMT -6
It's that 45 years ago / Paranoid / Black Sabbath thread. The lynch mob showed up when I said Black Sabbath were a hard rock band. (Which in all fairness, even VH1 and the band themselves consider them to be hard rock.)
I'll take credit for my fair share of pushing back, but that thread is as good of an example as any that an angry mob just doesn't disagree with the points made, but they'll personally attack the person making the point(s) they disagree with.
ie: When I called Black Sabbath hard rock, they didn't provide evidence on how Black Sabbath was metal... they instead pointed fingers at me stating that I didn't even know what metal was.
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Post by kimmo on Sept 24, 2015 6:44:00 GMT -6
It's that 45 years ago / Paranoid / Black Sabbath thread. The lynch mob showed up when I said Black Sabbath were a hard rock band. (Which in all fairness, even VH1 and the band themselves consider them to be hard rock.) There is a saying here that goes something like this "There are things that have sexual significance and there are things that have not", meaning that those symbolically sexual things are things that matter and others do not. I consider the labeling of Black Sabbath to the latter category and it is interesting how supposedly adult people can take such and issue with stuff like that. Sure one can argue about those kinda things and deceptive labeling of bands can suck too. I remember the days when you did not have internet and you had to rely on the description on the catalogue for purchases. Let's say that I was kinda disappointed what kinda stuff was sold as hardcore that time But as hard rock and metal are not that different from each other, though it depends on if you compere things like Stryper and Horde as extremes, but anyhow, sounds pretty petty thing to start putting down people for.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 24, 2015 8:34:42 GMT -6
Opinions will always differ regardless of technology. To me, the biggest difference is all in the approach. See here, we'd say things like "I feel its this. This is my opinion." The same thing at the CMR would be "I feel its this. You're an idiot if you think otherwise." Again with that place bringing out the worst in me... Anywhere else, I could care less what any band was labeled as, or what someone's opinion of me was... yet, on the CMR and only on the CMR, I find myself caring way too much about the opinions expressed, whether musically or personally. I couldn't take it anymore. I made a post on the CMR about the elephant in the room. Its been there too long so... lets see if there is actually ANY improvement there, or if that thread just turns into another circus. thecmr.forumotion.com/t8447-help-me-out-here-guys#158701
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Post by kimmo on Sept 24, 2015 9:30:31 GMT -6
See here, we'd say things like "I feel its this. This is my opinion." The same thing at the CMR would be "I feel its this. You're an idiot if you think otherwise." I think this is the way it should be everywhere. Especially with so called christian things. This kind of approach, among other things, is less provocative and leaves more room for intellectual discussion. It is really sad that this kinda stuff happens in a christian underground music forum. I mean, there arent too many of us into this kinda stuff and we already have to sorta fight for our existance sometimes within our christian brothers and sisters and more often within the secular audience, especially when talking about christian black metal.
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Post by kimmo on Sept 24, 2015 9:41:59 GMT -6
Now I read your post. Great words and great attitude. I know its the stuff we all are aware of but the Christlike attitude you portray there gave me encouragement to further pursue this kind of attitude in my life. So even though your words were birthed out of strife, they seem to have even divine wisdom in them. Not our wisdom, but the wisdom God gives (back) to His children and wisdom that I think we lost when we first sinned...simply put: Love.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 24, 2015 10:48:28 GMT -6
Wow. That was like one of the nicest things I think anyone has ever said to me? Thank you.
Not that I can take credit for divine wisdom - but I try to get myself out of the equation as much as possible for serious discussions like this. Its amazing what can happen when I get Tom and Tom's ego out of the way.
Piles of prayer beforehand certainly helps quite a bit too.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 24, 2015 16:32:53 GMT -6
I didn't quit while I was ahead. Banhammer came in and put a stop to me.
It was a mistake to try to distract myself with forum stuff on my scheduled day off work to cope with my grandmother's sudden death. I'm lashing out at everything, on and off line.
I haven't eaten or slept and I need to just... take a break.
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Post by kimmo on Sept 25, 2015 5:18:39 GMT -6
I didn't quit while I was ahead. Banhammer came in and put a stop to me. It was a mistake to try to distract myself with forum stuff on my scheduled day off work to cope with my grandmother's sudden death. I'm lashing out at everything, on and off line. I haven't eaten or slept and I need to just... take a break. Sad to hear about your loss. May God comfort you in this time of grief. I think youre acting very mature with all of this, especially when you aknowledge your own possible mistakes. Indeed, it seems like you need a break. You really do seem to have a lot on your plate right now and all the extra baggage from your shoulders needs to go, even though it is often easier said than done as I know perfectly well from my own experience. If you have nature around you, go take a walk in the woods and just listen the tranquillity. That many times calms me down. I used to go to the nearby woods with my cat on the leash and as he likes to often just prowl and stay still, it is the perfect place to just chill and maybe read a good book. Also, I have found that I have often more spontaniously praise God there than I do at church.
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