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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jul 31, 2015 6:02:39 GMT -6
I figured I'd make a thread to discuss this phenomenon in the Christian (metal) scene, after I saw this comment in the Evroklidon thread. Last I heard, one of the guys went satanic, came back to the good guy team, and they were working on another album. Roger Martinez was the first, or at least the most popular first. Bleakwail is another good example. Dude from Eternal Mystery went to the dark side, even though that's grindcore. Back on the Blabberboard, I remember people renouncing their faith and then coming back. One dude in particular, stated that he was a satanist, but had Christ "as a higher power". (sort of a "Do What Thou Wilt" and his will was Christ in his heart kind of thing. It seemed like trying to have his cake and eat it too, but according to him, he wasn't the only "satanist that worshiped Christ".) Even earlier back on the BCMMB (anyone around back then? That was the Brutal Christian Music Message Board) I remember this sort of thing happening to some degree. People would be involved with Christian metal/hardcore/punk, whether as an artist or listener, and then "leave". The conclusion I used to draw was that they were never a Christian, or only had a weak/passive faith to begin with. The conclusion I draw now is... I don't really know why this happens. I do know this sort of thing IS NOT impulsive. I believe there is a LOT of thinking behind this decision. To me, the issue is not that they're changing their mind - its how extreme the change is. Someone going from the holiest of holy's, and seemingly overnight, changing that for the evilest of evils. Thoughts?
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Post by Kerrick on Jul 31, 2015 11:14:53 GMT -6
This is a touchy subject... I definitely don't want us making a list of every Christian artist who's "fallen away" or "turned their backs" to God. I think that only causes division and judgment.
That being said, I suppose it goes back to the age-old free will/predestination discussion. Can someone place their faith in God and then "lose" their beliefs? Were they every a "true Christian" to begin with? Who knows. But it does seem to happen quite regularly in this realm of Christian extreme music. The metal scene has always been very black and white, on or off - when it comes to faith and beliefs. It's not a place where people can casually be indifferent it seems. Therefore, there's a lot of pressure from both "sides." Maybe it's just people succumbing to whatever pressure pushes harder? I don't know.
So as Christians involved in the scene, are there ways we can help keep each other accountable and perhaps prevent this from happening, even though most of us have never met in person?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 11:38:48 GMT -6
The metal scene has always been very black and white, on or off - when it comes to faith and beliefs. It's not a place where people can casually be indifferent it seems. Therefore, there's a lot of pressure from both "sides." Makes a lot of sense from my point of view. Just had a similar thought: switching between Christianity and "Satanism" (whatever that means in each particular case) doesn't seem to be a very common thing outside of Metal, right? Apart from this I've always thought that it's part of the human condition, so to speak. A belief is a belief, faith is faith - and whatever it is, it's nothing you can be sure of in the way you can 'know' other (very secular/tangible) things (even though it CAN feel very 'true' to the self). Doubting is very human, I guess. So especially when someone goes through greater changes in his life (both externally, but above all mentally) there might be a new focus on things.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 12:09:57 GMT -6
I read a while back that one of the guys from globalwavesystem, (from way back in the day) is now an atheist who is very enthusiastic about ... de-converting people I guess you could say. Not Satanism, but not just passively an atheist either.
I knew a guy online from back in the mid '90s who was very weird about his Christianity. He would go on and on about how much he loved God and such, then he would make a new screen name and basically "role play" as an atheist / satanist. Then admit to everyone what he did and say he would never do it again, bleh bleh bleh. He was a big Vengeance Rising fan, and when he finally discovered Roger becoming a satanist, this guy followed right along, moving back into that whole atheist / satanist persona permanently (at least as long as I knew him anyway). So I do think, at least in some cases the idea that person was never really a Christian, or never very serious about their faith to begin with, is indeed valid.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Dec 11, 2015 15:28:54 GMT -6
We're part of a very spiritually intense part of society. This isn't the mainstream country scene, where there are songs about drinking and partying, and as long as there's a song on the album talking about prayer, many people will consider it theologically sound. And we're not the post-grunge scene, where a lot of music just talks about daily life and struggles, like relationship issues, not that that's automatically wrong, mind you. We're part of a scene where on one hand, you have satanic musicians making ritualistic music influenced by black magic, while on the other hand, you have bands such as Beeroth, who are so devout about their faith, they wrote a huge note in the album inlay about how to be saved. (Note: Not sure anymore.) Or Frost Like Ashes, who tore out pages of a satanic bible and destroyed a pentagram on stage with a sword. You'd be very hard-pressed to find anything like this in most other genres of music. Or almost anywhere on earth, really. Like really, here are some country lyrics: Now compare that, with this: Heck, even the Christian industrial scene has very direct lyrics like that: It can sometimes be hard to determine the faith of bands in genres like... rock music. I have no idea what the beliefs of 3 Doors Down are. But in black metal, I've reached a point where I honestly cannot listen to satanic music - not that I'd want to anyway. The feelings of the musicians in black metal bleed through so heavily, that satanic music just messes with my head. It's so unpleasant to listen to. I actually can't listen to "Christian music" from bands that changed beliefs. Without exception, it's always unpleasantly "dark" somehow, just like satanic music. On the other hand, unblack metal is some of the "cleanest" music I can imagine. No doubt, this scene isn't for everyone. I suppose this is part of why this scene is so full of former satanists/occultists/etc because as those who were once acquainted with darkness, such people are now better equipped to fight it. And no doubt, we're helping people. I mentioned a few, just a few, in another thread who have converted to Christianity because of this scene. And like anything else in the world, I can totally understand that it's not going to help everyone, in the same way that a stuffy church building with an old dude giving a huge sermon is also beneficial to some, but not for others. The most we can do, I suppose, is pray for guidance, and definitely encourage others to do the same. People's hearts should be ultimately focused on the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" part of metal (and all things). In this specific scene, we should ensure that unblack metal, at the very most, only appears dark, that the dark imagery or sounds are just part of the artistic style on hand, meant to complement the message, and that we don't allow darkness to become the primary goal of our music or the very object of our worship. It can be difficult for some to make this distinction.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Dec 11, 2015 20:18:50 GMT -6
For starters, props to NI for bringing new life into stunted threads. I applaud you!
My "trying to keep it simple" theory is based on two different things. Keep in mind, I'm using the word theory because I don't have proof, it's PURELY SPECULATION based on my observations of this happening with others.
1) Reservation
I'm going to parallel this with my sobriety. If I have it deep DEEP in the recesses in my mind that I'm just between drinks long term, or have the seed of a plan to get wasted years down the road if X, Y or Z happens... I'm going to act on that.
If I have it deep DEEP in the recesses in my mind that "faith" is nothing more than a mental crowbar to make life easier, or if I'm going to abandon my belief system if X, Y or Z happens... I'm going to act on that.
2) Lack of Defense / Lack of Faith Preservation
Those who appear to have a strong faith might actually have a stubborn faith instead - HUGE difference between the two. Whether its refuted points by an extremely educated atheist, or a fellow Christian being a dick and leaving a permanently bad taste of faith - seeds get planted, and grow into things and rather than talking it out, doubts get bottled... dramatic and revenge-ish "I'm leaving" and the rest is history.
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Post by blake on Dec 16, 2015 9:02:52 GMT -6
I do remember Broc from the Blabberboard. It actually did not surprise me that he left the faith to be honest. Him and a few others were always hardcore debating with people like they were bible scholars, I remember one quote from him about this very topic of people turning away was that "The fires in their heart were lit by the hands of man", and I think that can explain this sometimes. We get giddy and excited over a feelgood message at church and then the newness and excitement fades as we read the bible for ourselves. That's why its important to know God personally rather than just know him based on what everyone tells you about Him
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