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Post by kimmo on Aug 1, 2015 6:35:52 GMT -6
Are there any of that kinda stuff out there? I cannot listen to very negative or anti-christian music (Well, all these depend on the context, of course, but generally) and even some christian black metal bands are too much for me sometimes, if they focus too much on the dark side in their lyrics.
Are there bands that have positive lyrics like adoring creation or stuff like that? I love the atmosphere of many BM bands and musically I dig stuff like Burzum for example, but just cant listen to it.
I have understood that there are some political minded black metal and then there is some with ecological themes, that kinda stuff would be interesting to check out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 7:48:24 GMT -6
I really like Immortal, Geist and Eis
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 8:20:49 GMT -6
Kind of 'No Sleep self promotion', but you might check out Old Graves (there's a new EP on Naturmacht Productions) or Kveldsmoerke. Or check out Wanderlust (Swampkult Productions) or Panopticon. There are definitely a lot more, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 8:24:04 GMT -6
Old Graves is awesome. One of my favorite secular bands. Here's their Bandcamp page: oldgraves.com/
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Post by kimmo on Aug 1, 2015 8:58:54 GMT -6
Thanks for all the tips, brothers!
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Post by Kerrick on Aug 1, 2015 12:30:38 GMT -6
Bann is quite good. I emailed back and forth with their singer a while back for a bit about their lyrics. He's a real chill guy. All their lyrics are in German, and mostly about medieval history. One of their songs (also my favorite, Aber aus der Asche wird ein Schwan entstehen) is about a Christian martyr and paints him in a positive light for dying for what he believed in. www.metal-archives.com/bands/Bann/73926Borknagar is good. They're Pagan so they're all about nature, but nothing anti-Christian. I'm actually considering selling off my copies of their discography so if interested, let me know. Weakling is my favorite black metal band, Christian or not. Their lyrics are unknown and incomprehensible to understand, but John stated in an interview that all the anti-Christianity stuff is stupid and not what they sing about. One of the songs has the f-word in the title; I don't know if that bothers you. Here's the title track. This one takes a while to get going... but oh, when it does, it is just breathtaking. I hope this helps!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 11:36:21 GMT -6
Yeah, Panopticon, the "Kentucky" album is one of my favorites.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 3, 2015 10:02:10 GMT -6
Sorry to toot my own horn, but click the animated banner in my signature. Your best bet for neutral non-Christian black metal with no hoaky business is when its made by a Christian.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 9:59:59 GMT -6
Depending on your style, Alcest might work for you. Their later, post-black metal stuff is really great, and pretty much completely free of anything unholy.
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Post by Kerrick on Aug 4, 2015 10:50:23 GMT -6
Alcest is one of my favorite bands. All their stuff is excellent IMO. I've seen 'em live twice and have met them and they're super chill, humble, friendly, and genuine guys.
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Post by Kerrick on Aug 5, 2015 17:20:41 GMT -6
I also highly recommend Wolves In The Throne Room. Their latest [metal] album is a masterpiece: Celestial Lineage.
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Post by kimmo on Aug 6, 2015 5:35:42 GMT -6
Alcest sounded really sophisticated and Panoption was surely an interesting mix of styles No problem with self-promotion, Thomas! WITTR has been in my interests for some time but never really got into listening them more deeply.
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Post by kimmo on Aug 6, 2015 6:27:19 GMT -6
Had to come back to comment on Panopticon. I did not know they had some sort of anarchist leanings, interesting. I come from punk scene in a way and while I have disagreements on some elements of anarchist thought, there are some interesting points discussed. Its funny that in this one finnish forum stuff like that, political or maybe all not KVLTEVL -BM is not considered Black at all Well, what I have read of the lyrics of Panoption, I would much rather listen to bands like this that have actually crafted some sort of sense and style into their lyrics, than something straight from Monty Python or Manowar...no offense to all the TRUE people out there Isnt there this sorta sub-genre in Black metal called "Red-anarchist black metal"? I have seen some blog with that name. Anyways, interesting stuff, agree or disagree. Also, again, well written lyrics by Panoption on their record "On the Subject of Mortality". While not being an atheist nor pantheist, they raise certain questions that are actually feeding my christian thought as well.
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Post by Kerrick on Aug 6, 2015 11:52:53 GMT -6
I remember a long time ago reading some lyrics or interviews of Panopticon and not being too down with them... I think it was the pantheism stuff... Great music though.
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Post by kimmo on Aug 7, 2015 6:14:17 GMT -6
Pantheism stuff rubs me the wrong way as well, but as they seem to be atheists, its more of adoring the nature than worshipping nature, I would say. Some christian bands are making great lyrics of nature as well, while not worshipping it, but seeing it as God's great creation, which is awesome.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 7, 2015 9:15:00 GMT -6
I know I've alluded to this on other threads, but if non-Christian / secular black metal actually doesn't completely go against the Christian faith, its complete coincidence. My opinion, for what its worth, is we shouldn't hold their lyrics to the same standard - because they could harmlessly talk about the beauty of nature, but still have a very black heart.
Not only that, but there's more than one way to interpret lyrics, and with that element of subjectivity, there's bias. Take, for example, these below.
I worship thee, I want to feel your power flow through me Hear my plead, come and rescue me Set my spirit free, allow me to see Grant me the key to eternity
Do I matter? I ask myself How come no one remembers my name? I who served the light Who fell in love with the night
[Chorus:] Free me from my shackles Pierce through my soul's disguise Grace me with the knowledge to see through the lies Make me one with you now and eternally Breathe through me for the world to see
Like sunshine after rain Lift me up, exalt me, release me from pain Remove damnation's stain That torments me and marks me as Cain
Are these Christian lyrics? Or are they glorifying something non-Christian? If you know where these come from, that may decide for you -
but if you didn't know, or do know but have the opinion that it doesn't matter where they came from, that shouldn't matter regarding what the words actually say, right?
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Post by kimmo on Aug 7, 2015 9:44:08 GMT -6
I personally judge a band by its lyrics and try to look each release as a whole as well as the background where the band is coming from. As for very black heart, where does one draw the line? Theologically speaking all non-christians have a black heart solely because they still belong to the kingdom of the enemy while they might not worship him and thus can also be free of the extra problems that worship brings.
What do you think Thomas, where do you draw the line? I have understood that you listen to non-christian BM as well?
Personally I am very sensitive about issues like this. Even more so with metal music and especially with black metal stuff. So I am kinda trying to find my opinions about this question.
I listen to some of non-christian hardcore/punk bands, but most of them are either not discussing religion at all, have lyrics that I can respect or deal with religion in a way that speaks to me in some way, even though they might be atheists.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 7, 2015 11:12:09 GMT -6
There's a few posts I made around here somewhere that go into more detail.
In regards to black metal lyrics/themes, I don't draw a line. To me, investing in the genuine value of secular black metal lyrics is about like watching a B rated horror movie and thinking the director is a murderer, or supports/glorifies/invests in murder.
Horror movies are entertainment. Black metal is entertainment. Its all show.
We don't know their hearts and how much they mean. Even if they THINK they're being extremely sincere and trying to live as evil as possible, their actions and words don't even compare to how powerful God's grace is. I think treating their art like its some sort of anti-gospel that will destroy someone's Christian faith, only gives it more power than it really has - definitely more power than it deserves.
Does anyone here think that reading their fiction will crumble his/her faith? I don't. It shouldn't be given any more weight than "just a scary, exciting story". Likewise, I can't imagine anyone feeling closer to God because of Christian black metal lyrics. We just like the sound and it just so happens to talk about what we believe/agree with.
Realistically, even the most evil black metal bands and most Christian black metal bands have members that still eat at McDonalds, work a 9 to 5 job, spend time with and try to provide for their families and just have an interest in a form of entertainment that sounds harsh. You buy a satanic black metal CD or Christian black metal CD, you're paying the artist for their hard work as a musician - you're not giving $10 to support Satan, or $10 to the glory of God. _____________________________________
That being said, I really do understand the sensitivity to the issue. I had it for YEARS and wouldn't listen to anything non-Christian, and if I did, I would feel extremely convicted.
I had a spiritual awakening a while back regarding this and no longer feel like I need to avoid what "the lost" do in their art. They don't know Him, so to weigh their non-Christian words/actions with my Christian standards is not fair or accurate. (that being said, it DOES still bother me when Christian bands exhibit non-Christian behavior (ie: Extol flipping-off cameras) - because I hold them to my/our Christian standards.)
My faith is stronger than ever and I enjoy good music, and it honestly doesn't matter to me if the lyrics are Christ centered or not - as long as I think the band sounds good. Its not a matter of "support", its a matter of sound preference, entertainment and art.
Hopefully that makes sense?
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Post by kimmo on Aug 7, 2015 11:41:16 GMT -6
Thanks bro! I can understand where you are coming from, but like I said, I personally tend to put a lot of weight on the lyrics. And I also do sometimes feel closer to God while listening to christian metal, just as I do when I am listening hymns or worthwhile praise/worship music (as not all of that is really interesting to me at all, hah). But like I said, I see your point of view. I guess its one of those matters of conscience The Bible talks about. If I have a change of heart about this issue and decide to think differently about the lyrics, I only hope that it comes from not straying away from faith, but just as you said, being stronger in faith. But maybe that will never happen and I still can become stronger in faith. Its just me being me, with my background and my story. All this is not about me judging non-christians who make music, but just me deciding what I think is right. My friends still listen to all kinds of stuff and play in all kinds of bands, as I am more connected to the secular hardcore/punk scene than I am to so called christian scene, that we dont even really have here in Finland. As for the standards of christian bands, I have to agree. It really saddens me if they do silly things. But I guess the worst thing for them to do is to be judgemental. I mean, not like in the way that they would necessarily shy away about what they believe in, but just in the way they say it, being insensitive and stuff like that. Then of course the whole legalism thing is whole another thing. Thankfully I havent seen that around that much at least here in Finland. So, I guess in a nutshell I would say that one should think and pray what is the best way for them to react to the culture around us. I am not the best person to talk about this, since I dont pray that much really, but I hope I wont be consumed by whats around but rather can be the catalyst and "change by renewing of my mind" as The Bible says. Thats all for this time, I think
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2015 18:02:10 GMT -6
Does anyone here think that reading their fiction will crumble his/her faith? I don't. It shouldn't be given any more weight than "just a scary, exciting story". Likewise, I can't imagine anyone feeling closer to God because of Christian black metal lyrics. We just like the sound and it just so happens to talk about what we believe/agree with. I was thinking this exact same thing the other day after reading a thread on CMR. The one saying that if anyone listens to "certain bands" they absolutely WILL be negatively effected by the lyrics. I can agree that there are some people who absolutely are negatively impacted in a spiritual way by certain songs and bands, and by all means they should avoid music that they feel this way about, I mean, it's just entertainment, there's no reason to listen to something if it's going to make you feel bad. But to flat out state that this applies to every other person in the exact same way? No. But if you tell them that you as an individual are not effected by music in that way, they will tell you that you are 1) a liar, 2) at some point you will be effected by it or 3) you aren't REALLY a Christian / you are a "bad Christian". Well, I am old ... I am well into middle age and I have been listening to music for going on three decades, I have also been a Christian for quite literally my entire life. I grew up going to church, I was baptized when I was 3 yrs old (and yes, it was by my own choice, not my parents) and I have never "fallen away". During several of those decades I have listened to Morbid Angel, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Deicide, etc. I have also listened to Horde, Mortification, Paramaecium, Living Sacrifice, etc. and I can promise you, whole heartedly that none of those bands effect me in any way. I feel exactly the same listening to Horde as I do listening to Burzum, neither one inherently draws me closer to God, nor pushes me away from God. I don't push my beliefs about music onto other people though. If someone only wants to listen to Christian music, I would be the last person to tell them to listen to secular. I would really like to receive that same courtesy back, but there are just so many people that think music has some magical power that effects everyone the same way. I'm told that "if I was closer to God, I wouldn't be able to stand those kind of bands" or I have been told flat out that I am not REALLY a Christian at all. And when I replied that I have been a Christian for over four decades I have been told that obviously I have NEVER really been a Christian at all. What I think it comes down to is how emotional of a person you are. Are certain Christian albums "especially blessed by God"? Well, some people certainly think so, and that's their prerogative to do so. My opinion, however is that the listener is simply a much more emotional person, and as such is having an emotional reaction to the music and lyrics. However the reaction is because of the listener, not because of the music (and having emotional reactions is NOT the same thing as discernment, which a lot of people like to claim. You don't need to be "gifted with discernment" to know that Darkthrone is an "evil band" ). Personally, I have never "felt God" through ANY music, I do not have emotional reactions to music, other than experiencing enjoyment, or irritation or whatever. I listen to music and I think "Oh, that was a cool album, I really liked it", I don't go "OH WOW, I was totally touched by God in a profound and life changing way!" Honestly, I am glad I don't have those types of reactions to things, as from what I have seen it's the people who base their lives on emotions that bounce back and forth amongst religions. They stop "feeling God" and they move on to paganism, or atheism, or satanism, or whatever. Meanwhile here I am a Christian for my entire life despite having a CD collection filled with "evil music". Well, I rambled on, but I read this right after I had been thinking all of this anyway, so it seemed like too coincidental of a thing for me to not get it off of my chest.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 7, 2015 22:27:48 GMT -6
During several of those decades I have listened to Morbid Angel, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Deicide, etc. I have also listened to Horde, Mortification, Paramaecium, Living Sacrifice, etc. and I can promise you, whole heartedly that none of those bands effect me in any way. I feel exactly the same listening to Horde as I do listening to Burzum, neither one inherently draws me closer to God, nor pushes me away from God. ... What I think it comes down to is how emotional of a person you are. Are certain Christian albums "especially blessed by God"? Well, some people certainly think so, and that's their prerogative to do so. My opinion, however is that the listener is simply a much more emotional person, and as such is having an emotional reaction to the music and lyrics. However the reaction is because of the listener, not because of the music (and having emotional reactions is NOT the same thing as discernment, which a lot of people like to claim. Good points sir. I'm the same way regarding the music. The lyrics don't influence me either way. I will change one statement I said before, I don't doubt that people can have their faith influenced by music, but I wouldn't say its the norm. (at least it shouldn't be the norm) You're right, I think emotions do play a part, but I think there's an extra "mental" element as well - not that its a disability, but I would go as far as to say its a weakness. I'm not meaning it to be a slam, I certainly was that way for years before I "woke up". I'll explain. You know, every so often there's a big uproar about "vile" music, or violent video games and someone doing something because of it. I remember reading a story where a relatively young girl inadvertently killed her little brother by hitting him in the head with a hammer, because she saw it on The 3 Stooges. I'd say there's MILLIONS of people that have seen that show and there is only one circumstance of this happening. There was a big uproar a few years ago about someone committing suicide with a shotgun because it was lyrics in a Judas Priest song. How many MILLIONS of people have heard that song and ended up blowing their brains out too? There's only that one instance that I know of. Something local for me, two teenagers committed suicide together and when their bodies were found, a single Evanescence song (on repeat) was blaring and people started to blame the band. Anyone else ever heard of someone killing themselves over this band? I'm unaware of any other examples. I'll stop right there to say, if someone doesn't like satanic lyrics because they find it distasteful, or unappealing enough not to want to listen to that... I totally get that. I find explicit sex scenes in movies (they're an epidemic in the horror genre) to be distasteful, even if I'm watching it alone. Its not because I think I'll end up cheating on my wife, or get "raepy" urges or that my quality of Christianity will go down -200 points. Its just tacky and I want to see zombie heads blown off, not small tits on a borderline anorexic actor. Obviously, that content is in those people because some people really do like it. If someone thinks being a Christian and listening to Dark Funeral will eventually make them evil, worship Satan and murder Christians, it very well could - but there is something MENTALLY WRONG with that person/those people. The issue isn't the lyrics, music or band - the issue is the wiring of their brain. (and if people on the CMR are saying that, that does not surprise me one bit - I swear a handful of people there are in an "assisted living" environment.) Again, if someone realizes/knows there's no power/weight in satanic/anti-Christian lyrics and just don't want to hear that because they think its tacky or annoying - I have nothing but complete respect and understanding for that.
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