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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 19:46:48 GMT -6
Ok now that I have your attention with my title I am going to state right off the bat I am going to be controversial and I really don't care.
Still here??????????????
Ok now time for me to vent as that is what this thread is about. Yesterday a Member of a Christian extreme metal band posted a very anti Christmas post and called out other Christians who celebrate Christmas and the celebration of the birth of Christ. He flat out said that Christians who celebrate Christmas were committing blasphemy and he went on and on and on. Needless to say I had to put in my two cents and tell him that he was a bit over the top. He then turned on me and, while not in exact words but very much insinuated, that I would go to hell and that I was a pagan taking God's name in vain for celebrating Christmas. I was called a hypocrite and you name it. Funny thing is this he calls me out, and other Christians for celebrating Christmas due to the original origins of it. The problem is this. Those origins were called by a different name and celebrated on a different day. Today while it is very comercialized it is STILL considered and celebrated as the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. So what in the world is pagan about or sinful about celebrating our lord and savior?
Yet I let him know one simple thing that not only does he deny but refuses to acknowledge. That being that I guarantee that he has a calendar and celebrates his birthday. Both things are not only originated in pagan tradition but also in worshiping of the stars and pagan god's. Christmas may have started off with pagan traditions but it became the CELEBRATION OF THE BIRTH OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR. That is why I celebrate it. So why does he pick on and poo poo on and accuse me of blaspheme and call me, in a very insinuated way, hellbound hypocritical pagan who takes God's name in vain yet takes part in use of things that are even more steeped in pagan tradition? And how is celebrating Christmas blasphemy or a sin. Part of what Christmas is is the outreach to the poor by giving food and clothes etc or to fill a shoe box for children in forgien countries who live in a grass hut and the only Christ they ever get is a Shoe box full of toys etc from a Christian in the USA. HOW IS THAT SIN OR PAGAN WORSHIP? Isn't that the type of thing that Christ asked us to do?
And the tactics he uses are the VERY SAME TACTICS that heavy metal haters use to bash Christian metal calling it evil. Funny coming from someone who has that same tactic used by others against him that he should use that tactic against other Christians about this topic.
Needless to say I have lost my respect for this person and it makes me wander why I even stay in the Metal Scene. For that matter it makes me wander a LOT of things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 20:25:34 GMT -6
I can't blame you for getting angry, dude.
Remember, the reason to stay in the metal scene is because you have us!
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Dec 3, 2015 22:10:21 GMT -6
I don't really like the idea of Christmas having so much pagan influence, but I don't feel convicted in the slightest to do anything about it because it's clearly not a snare to 90+% of people who take part in it. And if it is a snare to some, I understand and those people don't have to take part in it. But I still don't feel the need to talk about it. There's way more important stuff that we need to focus on. The focus shouldn't be on small stuff that has since lost its pagan meaning anyway, when there's so much wrong with the world that is evil today.
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Post by Deepfriar on Dec 4, 2015 5:10:45 GMT -6
Don't let the person get to you. It sounds like an attack of the enemy to be honest. The devil doesn't come at you all fire, brimstone, and a pitchfork; he works through people.
Even if it's not an attack by the enemy, there will always be people who take their beliefs to extremes and try to force those beliefs on others. Just use it as an opportunity to examine what you believe and why, make sure you are built on the rock of Jesus Christ, and follow your convictions. Sometimes you have to leave the rest in God's hands.
Furthermore, it looks like most of us are rallying to you so that should be confirmation that you are not in error so I wouldn't sweat stupid stuff like this.
Most importantly, you don't answer to anyone but God so cast your cares on Him and let His peace reign in your heart.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 5:31:34 GMT -6
below is what I woke up to find in my inbox from him this morning "You can actually trace Christ's birth bro in Luke 2 "course of Abijah" as far as the other comments about calenders and birthday's don't be ridiculous you are comparing apples to oranges and you have a totally straw man argument. I will not cast my pearls before swine any longer. Good luck to you. I choose to serve only one God and worship Him in ways that are acceptable to him in the bible. God doesn't accept strange fire. Peace.I ask you to please not contact me anymore. I'm no longer affiliated with your record label. I don't know you personally and I never asked for your advice or opinions. I think you are of the world, liberal, and not a true follower of Christ. I hope you find the true path. Remember narrow is the path that leads to life and broad is the way that leads to destruction. Take the road less traveled. There is no way to justify Christmas as it never was Christian in its origins and I've done plenty of research and am far more knowledgeable of the Word than you. You should learn to show respect to those in authority above you. Your fight is not with me anymore its with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You will be judged for this incident one day if you do not repent. I don't wish that upon you. Do not be cursed but blessed. Do things God's way and not your own way, rebels will be thrown in the fire." The funny thing is that the two things I let him know about the things that he does are more steeped in Paganism that is Christmas Here is what I had sent him www.paganspath.com/magik/lunarcal.htmwww.triumphpro.com/birthdays-origin.htmNow I was not saying that he was somehow worse than me or anything just letting him know that his arguement carried no weight when He celebrates and has pagan things as do 90% of all of us. That doesn't mean that we are going to hell or sinning mind you but honestly it is no different than Christmas. The other funny thing about his message to me is this. He seems to think that HE IS IN AUTHORITY ABOVE ME. LOL I will now out him as I am done with his band and him. It is Jon Francis. Better known as Agonal. I can't believe that one of our own a brother in Christ who has had major issues himself with people being just like he is being to me would actually treat people the way he now is. I have lost all respect for him and his band and I honestly don't know how much longer I will stay around I am tired of crap like this.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Dec 4, 2015 8:27:19 GMT -6
Wow. This is a conglomerated cluster. Where do I start?
I'm going to sound ignorant and say, I had no idea Christmas had pagan roots/beginnings/origins/birth/whatever... ...and that makes me wonder if there's millions of other Christians who had no idea either? That being said, what something started out as doesn't eternally define what it is.
Heroin had its roots/beginnings/origins/birth/whatever as a cough syrup. That doesn't mean heroin is still a cough syrup.
Christians like to make things theirs. Nothing wrong with that. Ever been to a church where they sing "Sweet Home Up in Heaven" in the same tune as "Sweet Home Alabama"? That's a good example of the Christianization of something non Christian. _________________________
Larry, I don't think someone is hellbound for celebrating Christmas, and I don't agree with Jon for saying those things... ...but I don't agree with how you're handling it either. Since you're here and he's not, I'm going to mostly address you - since you're part of the family here and he's not.
This ↓
...tells me that you're pursuing and browbeating him over his silly belief, which is silly in itself. Please tell me you're not e-mailing him after he said that.
Larry, Nothing you can say will make Jon think Christmas is Christ-rific. Nothing you can say will make Jon think you're not completely wrong and probably going to hell. You need to accept that and move on or it will consume you.
I would NEVER do something like this, I repeat, I would NEVER do something like this, but after The Flat Earth Thread Massacre of 2015, I seriously thought of posting as an anonymous stranger and saying something crazy... Like, Jesus is a turtle because Song of Solomon 2:12 says "the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;" and sprinkle on a healthy dose of "If you don't believe Jesus is a turtle, you're going to hell, you're not a Christian, etc."
...just to see how far you would take it and how much you would let it get to you. I'd have a good idea of how big the walls of text would be, how many consecutive responses I could get, how much anger and negativity I could unearth, etc. etc. etc.
Maybe something THAT ridiculous wouldn't work, but seriously Larry, you're going to the moon, losing all sorts of serenity and maximizing the butthurt because people think the earth is flat and people think Christmas is pagan. I mean, what is it with stuff like this that just sucks the joy, love and peace right out of you?
I know that hypothetical prank was a mean example, but I care about you brother - and I don't like seeing you in anguish because someone else has different details in their faith and questions your salvation because you don't believe exactly what they do. Look, I think its good to stand up for your faith, but in terms of the fine details of something that really isn't going to matter one bit 100 years from now, I think its best to practice humility, respect and empathy.
I'm going to stereotype Christians for a moment. Christians are not very humble and have a poor grasp on empathy. We'll look at something like, Scientology, and easily shoot all sorts of holes in it. I mean, they've got a spaceship, their "god" lived like 50 years ago and had a social security number and wore sneakers...
I'm not for namecalling at all, but even I think that's pretty stupid.
Meanwhile, millions of Christians think it makes perfect and complete sense that a lady didn't have sex but still had a baby named Jesus Christ, who is His own Father. If we symbolically eat His flesh and telepathically tell Him He's our master, we won't stand in a room on fire for eternity after we die.
If I had empathy, I could understand (not agree with, but understand) why someone in a different environment/upbringing would think my beliefs were stupid. If I had respect, I'm not going to insult those with different beliefs.
I think rather than smash other beliefs (system or non-system beliefs) to smithereens and shove ours in its place, we should teach with love. If the door is closed, don't try to pry it open.
I hope you don't take offense to anything I've said - I'm typing this out of Christian love. The last thing I'd want you to do Larry is bail because someone on the internet is wrong.
Things like this, you really need to let go and let God.
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Post by barabbas on Dec 4, 2015 12:34:54 GMT -6
I hesitate to jump into fray and do so with some fear and trembling. Our church has been going through Romans 14 this week, which seems to fit this situation perfectly. It concerns disputes Christians in Rome were having over eating certain foods and celebrating certain holy days. In themselves, days and food are morally indifferent. The problem for the (seemingly Jewish) believers who were weak in faith had to do with the pagan associations with food and holy days. The reason they were weak in faith is because they weren't putting their trust completely in Jesus for salvation and were also trusting in their religious behaviors/practices to make them holy. Paul is clear in Romans that only God can make us holy/righteous through Christ.
"Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him." (Romans 14:3 ESV)
It seems pretty clear that this brother in Christ is judging you for your approach to Christmas, and Paul says that those who have convictions about those kinds of observances shouldn't judge those who don't have such convictions. Their faith is weak if they put their trust in such practices (or non-practices) to make them righteous.
I have no intention to pile on. An internet forum is not ideal for this discussion. I say this by way of encouragement and love to you, Larry, so that this won't be something that gnaws away at you. But Paul also says that we should not despise those who are weak in faith and have convictions about such observances (or non-observances, as is the case here). Paul doesn't side with either party in the debate. Instead, he tells them to do their best to live in unity despite their differences.
Paul gives the reasons why we shouldn't judge or despise our brothers and sisters in Christ: 1. It is not for one servant to judge another. The master decides whether the servant has done well or not (v.4). 2. Everything we do should be for the Lord (v.6). 3. We don't belong to ourselves. Christ died for us and we belong to him in both life and death (vv.7-9). 4. God is the judge to whom we must all give account (vv.10-12). 5. We are to welcome/receive/accept each other, because God welcomed us when we were his enemies (vv.1, 3, and Rom. 5:6-11).
None of us is in a position to despise or to judge each other. We're all jerks and poor beggars who need Christ's welcome of us.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Dec 4, 2015 13:09:22 GMT -6
Whoa. Awesome post Barabbas.
Please don't hesitate to jump into "the fray" - especially with as respectful of an approach as you have. I think you've got an element of insight that would certainly be useful around here!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 19:22:32 GMT -6
Tom this played out in a post on Facebook i think maybe his wall. He sent me several private messages and i blocked him. After work i searched the info on calendars unblocked him and sent him ONE private message. He even went as far as to tell me that the guy in California who killed all those people this week was God'S JUDGEMENT on them for having an office Christmas party. No he has blocked me and I have blocked all of his pages.
Yes I have been deeply hurt by this as it hurts me to be called a blasphemous hell bound liberal non Christian that is somehow stupid and under jons authority. Yet i am some 10 to 15 years hia senior and he thinks he rules me. Yes that hurts me.
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Post by barabbas on Dec 4, 2015 19:37:04 GMT -6
Cheers, Thomas! Super glad you found it helpful. I thought it might be providential that this was the passage our church was studying this week.
Larry, I wonder if when he said that you should respect the authority of those above you he meant God? The next sentence in his message to you says that your fight is with God.
I certainly understand why those things are hurtful, but they also don't appear to be true. In any case, he's in no position to know whether you're bound for hell or not. (Unless he's God, of course. I would be surprised to discover that God has a FB account. I mean, wouldn't he get tired of Farmville faster than anyone?)
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Post by barabbas on Dec 4, 2015 19:40:04 GMT -6
Sorry for the double post. Forgot to mention that I've ordered from your store before, Larry. I found you to be super helpful and courteous. That's not guaranteed in the Christian scene, so it is much appreciated. Press on! We appreciate you!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Dec 4, 2015 21:35:55 GMT -6
He even went as far as to tell me that the guy in California who killed all those people this week was God'S JUDGEMENT on them for having an office Christmas party. I spit my root beer out. He's worse than I thought. Yes I have been deeply hurt by this as it hurts me to be called a blasphemous hell bound liberal non Christian that is somehow stupid and under jons authority. Yet i am some 10 to 15 years hia senior and he thinks he rules me. Yes that hurts me. Really man? Why? You know, we should pray the lost find salvation, and I'm not going to doubt this guy does not have Christ, but its obvious that he is CRAZY. Like completely frickin' neurotic and disconnected with reality. You should be LAUGHING or YAWNING bro. ...not hurt. Let me ask you. If some dude came here and was saying that his ventriloquist muppet was the second coming of Christ, and he called you a blasphemous hell bound pagan heathen atheist non Christian bible hater and he rules you because he has fruit snacks and Mr. Bimble lives in his finger. ..would you be HURT by that man? Come on. That scenario is only like one peg up in terms of his caliber of crazy.
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Post by Deepfriar on Dec 5, 2015 5:34:12 GMT -6
Is this a bad time to say I'm going to a company Christmas party today?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Dec 5, 2015 9:24:39 GMT -6
No... but it might be bad that you told the Internet you were going.
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Post by Deepfriar on Dec 5, 2015 9:47:50 GMT -6
Uh oh... move to "Spirit of Anonymity" plz!!1!1
lol
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 10:15:27 GMT -6
Uh oh... move to "Spirit of Anonymity" plz!!1!1 lol lol. And beware of shouting out against Islam as I have seen on facebook that the government will prosecute anyone who does lol. Not sure if that is true or not but I did see it. I thought about saying something against it in a comment just because but decided that what I was going to say would make me even more hated than I already am so I didn't.
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