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Post by Kerrick on Jan 29, 2016 13:55:18 GMT -6
I posted this on CHM but would like to get your guys' thoughts on this too! So at church this past Sunday the sermon was on forgiveness. The speaker spent most of the time talking about how for our own good, we need to forgive others - even when they don't repent to us. In preparation for our Bible study group last night, my girlfriend Veronika started doing some research on biblical forgiveness and found some interesting points. We brought these up to our group and received very mixed reactions and thoughts. I'd love to hear what y'all have to say on this. First, what is forgiveness? Prior to meeting, I think everyone thought we had a pretty good idea of what it means to forgive. But nowhere (to my knowledge) in the Bible does it actually define forgiveness. Second, should we forgive everyone who wrongs us? The expected answer is 'yes.' But from our research, that is NOT what the Bible says! Honestly, I was quite shocked - even though I've read through Luke numerous times throughout my life. I've always been taught to forgive everyone. Now this is specifically with regards to a fellow believer. Does the same rule apply for non-Christians? Much of this topic has been sparked by a blog that Veronika found online. (It's not too long and very well thought-out; I highly recommend reading it!) A point it makes that I found particularly interesting is that, So much of our modern church culture (at least that I've experienced growing up in the church) seems to focus on "horizontal forgiveness." One thing that our group couldn't agree upon last night was just what forgiveness is - and more specifically, whether forgiveness and "letting go" of wrongs done against you are the same or different things. I would argue that they are two different things and that Paul is not talking about forgiveness here: We're called to love everyone and as for as much as we have control over, to live at peace with everyone. I would argue that living at peace with everyone WOULD include "letting go" of the wrongs done against you - even if they don't ask for forgiveness from you. BUT it would seem that the Bible does NOT teach us to forgive them. Is there a difference between forgiving and letting go/living at peace with others??? Should we forgive people when they do wrong? Alright, let's hear what you've got to say!
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Jan 29, 2016 14:55:34 GMT -6
Living at peace with someone would be an external activity, pardoning them would be internal.
I saw before where it said to only forgive them if they express genuine repentant remorse. It's a little difficult to put into practice (determining when someone is truly sorry) but I try to practice mercy. I also try to forgive people I don't see or talk to anymore. Just in case they repent later on. I'm not sure if it's really "necessary" to go that far, but better safe than sorry. I also don't like holding grudges in general, even though I'm still learning how not to do that.
I didn't know that word referred only to other believers. Hm... I would think we should forgive unbelievers who express remorse for things they do to us. The way I see that issue is, we should forgive them if they apologize. God will handle the situation from there. I personally cannot forgive someone for something they did against God, because I'm not God. Forgiveness from me and forgiveness from God are two different things. I'm not God, but I can still be wronged by others. So I would think it'd fall under our calling to forgive unbelievers under most circumstances, but also to make sure we don't willingly permit sinfulness in the process. Justice and mercy can be difficult to combine into one lifestyle - that's one of many reasons prayer is so important.
I'm really, really tired as I'm writing this, I hope it makes sense.
Edit: As for what "forgiveness" is, it's what God does for us. Pardons us. If accidentally knocking someone over in a crowd were punishable by law, a person who wasn't forgiving would, one might say, take on the role of a judge by taking the person who knocked them over to court and seeking the highest possible punishment, seeking justice for the crime that was committed. But a forgiving person would spare the other person that punishment, and not seek judgment on them, but instead show mercy. Justice and mercy. Again, something God can work with perfectly, but I absolutely can't. And so I pray for guidance.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jan 29, 2016 17:03:29 GMT -6
Good thread bro! I'm not going to really touch on Christ forgiving us, because that's a given - and this is my two cents on us forgiving others. I used to have the attitude of "if they're not sorry, I'm not going to forgive them", which is what I used to think the Luke 17 verse that Kerrick mentioned meant. Rebuke is another word for "disapprove" or "criticize" - which I think anyone who did something wrong, who isn't sorry, should be criticized! They should be made to felt awful until they're sorry, and then we forgive them. See what that scripture verse did there? As for my own personal take regarding forgiveness, this is where I'm going to let some of my sobriety literature shine. In the back of the Alcoholics Anonymous book, there's a story towards the back of the book called "Freedom from Bondage". On page 561, there's the "cure" for resentment and a good explanation of how to forgive! See, me forgiving someone isn't just to do them a favor - its also freeing me from the bondage of resentment and hatred. ...and even though that paragraph didn't give a dictionary-esqe definition of forgiveness, its clear to see that its the replacement of something bad, with something good. ...for the forgiver! It all depends on what the offense is and my attitude at the time. If someone took a loose $5 from my sweatjacket that I left hanging on the back of my chair while I was on break at work, I got told who it was, and I don't care because it was just $5 bucks. Naw. Forgiveness isn't needed. If that happened, and it starts renting space in my head, and I feel it festering and anger growing, and this irritation is starting to take my focus away from the glory of God, I need to 1) Resolve the situation so that irritation DOESN'T GROW 2) Start praying for that person, their well being, their happiness until that irritation STOPS. I hope that makes sense for my definition of forgiveness.
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Post by barabbas on Jan 29, 2016 22:40:47 GMT -6
Great thread, Kerrick! A couple of thoughts: The Luke passage doesn't say we shouldn't forgive those who don't repent. It only says we should forgive those who do. It's completely consistent with the passage (and arguably with the rest of Scripture) that we are called to forgive everyone, including those who don't repent. There is a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. While I think we're always called to forgive, we're not always called to reconcile. David forgave Saul and treated him with mercy, but they were never reconciled. Likewise, someone who was abused might forgive the abuser, but they shouldn't have a relationship again. There has been a massive amount of research on forgiveness in recent decades. It leads to better physical and mental health, better relationships, etc. One of the best researchers is a Christian psychologist: Ev Worthington. He has a really amazing testimony about how he got into forgiveness research.
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Post by Kerrick on Feb 1, 2016 15:58:28 GMT -6
Wow guys, thanks for your input! There's some really rich stuff in here. I'm going to try to sum up each person's thoughts (and apologize now if I am wrong!). This is great though: the stuff you brought up was also brought up in some degree or another in my Bible study group but we never really came to an agreement on anything! I'm excited to see what we come up with and determine here. nocturnaliridescence , you consider forgiveness to be mercy when we deserve judgment. (I.E. God - through His Son - has forgiven us and therefore in His mercy has withheld the doom that we deserve.) I'm not certain I agree with you that that is what forgiveness is. The family of someone who was murdered could forgive their child's murderer, though the legal ramifications of the murderer's decisions still remain - as they should (I believe). If we're to forgive as God has forgiven us, recall that while God does indeed forgive us, we still have to deal with the earthly consequences of our sins (though not the eternal consequences). I suppose I think pardoning someone would be external too, since the consequences of their judgment are also external and therefore the pardoning of those consequences are external. I would argue that forgiveness probably has both internal and external traits, though probably mostly internal. You bring up an interesting point though of who sin is against and therefore who has the right to forgive. As you said, none of us are God. But while we may experience the effects of sin against us, in the end, sin is really only against God. Thomas Eversole , where Nocturnaliridescence put the focus on forgiveness on the perpetrator, you consider forgiveness to be more for the person wronged: that the anger/bitterness/resentment can take ahold of the one wronged and tear them down and apart. But forgiveness is a primarily tool to free ourselves from that self-destruction. You said you wouldn't touch on God's forgiveness towards us because that's a given, but I wonder if we should flesh that out a little more? For we're commanded to forgive as God forgave us. So how did He forgive us? Was it for His benefit or ours? (That goes back to why we were created in the first place and could take us on quite a rabbit trail but possibly one worthwhile?) Obviously God doesn't need to forgive us for His own sake. But He is a relational God who dearly loves His children and we would need to be forgiven/wiped clean/sanctified to ever exist in His presence. Does God forgive everyone or only those who accept it? (That may get into the topic of universalism which if we can, should probably be avoided in this discussion, though it may be unavoidable.) Anyways, I guess I'm interested to hear how your definition of forgiveness lines up with how and why God has forgiven us? barabbas, that's an excellent point that it doesn't explicitly say NOT to forgive those who don't repent. But is it implied? Can we simultaneously rebuke AND forgive someone? I agree about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, but is there a difference between the letting go of things (similar to how Thomas defined forgiveness) and forgiveness too? I very briefly browsed Worthington's website and it looks to be chalk-full of information. Thank you for the link! Hopefully I'll get some time soon to look through it some. Well thanks again guys for your insight and unique perspectives on this! The questions I asked above weren't meant for the individual I addressed them to but rather open for everyone.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 1, 2016 16:34:31 GMT -6
nocturnaliridescence , you consider forgiveness to be mercy when we deserve judgment. (I.E. God - through His Son - has forgiven us and therefore in His mercy has withheld the doom that we deserve.) I'm not certain I agree with you that that is what forgiveness is. The family of someone who was murdered could forgive their child's murderer, though the legal ramifications of the murderer's decisions still remain - as they should (I believe). If we're to forgive as God has forgiven us, recall that while God does indeed forgive us, we still have to deal with the earthly consequences of our sins (though not the eternal consequences). I suppose I think pardoning someone would be external too, since the consequences of their judgment are also external and therefore the pardoning of those consequences are external. I would argue that forgiveness probably has both internal and external traits, though probably mostly internal. You bring up an interesting point though of who sin is against and therefore who has the right to forgive. As you said, none of us are God. But while we may experience the effects of sin against us, in the end, sin is really only against God. My thinking with regard to human law, is that human actions don't always represent God's will (Ezekiel 18:32) so.. according to the rules we were given, should a person really pay earthly consequences for sin even after genuine repentance takes place? I'm not saying we actually have to discuss this - it's a whole other can of worms, it's just something to consider. But what I meant with living at peace being "external" was just that some people "live at peace" with others while not truly forgiving them. Like tolerating certain relatives at holiday gatherings. That's not the right thing to do, of course - just saying it's theoretically possible. Also, true, in some small way, not forgiving them would still have an external impact too, but not much. Overall it seems your perspective puts more emphasis on human laws than mine.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 1, 2016 19:13:22 GMT -6
Thomas Eversole , where Nocturnaliridescence put the focus on forgiveness on the perpetrator, you consider forgiveness to be more for the person wronged: that the anger/bitterness/resentment can take ahold of the one wronged and tear them down and apart. But forgiveness is a primarily tool to free ourselves from that self-destruction. You said you wouldn't touch on God's forgiveness towards us because that's a given, but I wonder if we should flesh that out a little more? For we're commanded to forgive as God forgave us. So how did He forgive us? Was it for His benefit or ours? (That goes back to why we were created in the first place and could take us on quite a rabbit trail but possibly one worthwhile?) Obviously God doesn't need to forgive us for His own sake. But He is a relational God who dearly loves His children and we would need to be forgiven/wiped clean/sanctified to ever exist in His presence. Does God forgive everyone or only those who accept it? (That may get into the topic of universalism which if we can, should probably be avoided in this discussion, though it may be unavoidable.) Anyways, I guess I'm interested to hear how your definition of forgiveness lines up with how and why God has forgiven us? I would think that if we were to forgive others like God forgave us, it would be two points. 1) overlook, let go, no longer bring up the fault, move on from it 2) pay for their screw up Like if someone came by my parents house, broke the passenger window out of my dad's truck, they came to me saying they were sorry, I told them they were forgiven and then I paid to have the window fixed. (like we sinned against God, repented, and then Christ paid for it) That's the worldly analogy, but the concept is still there. In addendum, (and its already been said in different wording) I think forgiveness implies some sort of amends. I think any given situation, we would expect the person who screwed up to pay for the mistake. (ie: they broke the window, they pay for it) ...so, as far as myself forgiving others EXACTLY like God forgives us? I'm honestly not there. I'll forgive anyone mentally, whether for them or to keep my sanity, but I would expect them to honor the amends part.
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Post by Deepfriar on Feb 5, 2016 6:12:01 GMT -6
It is not "necessary" to forgive anyone. We should be careful not to put ourselves on a performance based system as if God's grace is not sufficient. Jesus' teaching that if we do not forgive then God will not forgive us (Matt. 6:15) was taught to people under law and is not meant for new covenant believers. Under the new covenant God does not hold our sin against us.
That being said, it is good to forgive anyone and everyone because it is an expression of God on the inside of you and it should come naturally because it is our new man's nature to operate like God (even though sometimes we choose to express ourselves through our flesh instead).
As far as defining forgiveness, I would say it's a free will choice. Not a feeling, an attitude, but a choice. I can be angry at someone, even expect them to apologize or make amends, and still make a conscious decision to forgive them (it helps to verbalize whether they can hear you or not). Your emotions may or may not line up immediately but you CAN choose to forgive. It is good for the soul and helps a person sleep. :-)
My 2 cents. Happy Friday!
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 6, 2016 2:37:00 GMT -6
Dude, that is a great post and it makes absolute sense.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 6, 2016 10:46:01 GMT -6
It is not "necessary" to forgive anyone. . . . Under the new covenant God does not hold our sin against us. I used to think this way, but be careful: and having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him - Hebrews 5:9 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. If anyone says, "I know Him," but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1 John 2:3-4 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. - 2 Corinthians 7:10
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 6, 2016 11:45:08 GMT -6
"All who obey him" and "keep his commandments" doesn't require a flawless execution though. If it did, we're all screwed because we're not capable of that. ...at least I'm certainly not. "Worldly sorrow" does bring death but that doesn't mean our sins are any less paid for.
Salvation is a gift (not something earned) and Christ literally did the hard part so we wouldn't have to. The least we can do is try to be like Him as much as possible, which one ingredient to that recipe would be forgiving others.
In short, my opinion, forgiveness is a trademark of Christlike behavior, not something that will put us in sin if we don't do it.
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Post by Deepfriar on Feb 6, 2016 12:24:44 GMT -6
I believe that God's commandments under the New Covenant are love God and love others. Hebrews also says that the law changed because the priesthood changed. Jesus is our High Priest from the tribe of Judah (not Levi). We cannot mix the law of Moses with the law of liberty in Christ; it doesn't mix. New wine bursts old wineskins. There is no justification through the Ten Commandments or the law; they brought us death not life.
I'm not minimizing the importance of morals but pointing out that our righteousness doesn't come from our behavior but it comes as a free gift by faith (Rom. 5).
This is a good discussion! Thanks for all the input and ideas.
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Post by xianmetaldoc on Feb 10, 2016 10:35:34 GMT -6
I think forgiveness is often more for us than for the person we are forgiving. When we refuse to forgive someone, we are imprisoning ourselves and choosing to live with bitterness and resentment. It really becomes a cancer in our hearts that grows and grows until it consumes us. I don't know if any of this is biblical, but it is at least anecdotally true.
I read somewhere that forgiveness doesn't mean letting someone off the hook, it simply means we are surrendering our right to stand in judgement over that person and accepting the sovereignty of God to deal with offenses against us. Being the judge is a burden God doesn't want us to bear.
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