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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 14:14:48 GMT -6
So I'm sure you guys are familiar with me getting publicly flogged in the Damnation's Details thread. I made a similar post on a separate forum (not the CMR) and one dude brought up something I'd never heard of before. Most people say I'm wrong because of *insert bible verse that still doesn't say people will be in hell forever*. (just had to jab that ) This dude brought up "Soteriology" and "free will" as why I'm wrong. Can't figure out what the hell he means by it. I mean, Google says Soteriology is the theology of salvation, but I have no idea how that ties into free will or what's going on. Here's an exact quote if you guys want to try to help me make sense of it. I know free will was brought up on another thread here. I don't understand what the hubbub is about this. Are people saying we don't really have the ability to decide things for ourselves? What are the viewpoints regarding? Can someone help make sense of this?
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 19, 2016 15:29:32 GMT -6
You're welcome. Hmm, his response to you is rather vague... It'd be nice if he left you a clue as to what the proper understanding of free will with regards to salvation is. I think what he's getting at is just what the "elect" is and whether or not humans have free will to choose to love/know God or not. Theologians have argued until they're blue in the face about predestination vs free will, but I will say that as time passes, I am becoming more and more along the lines of the elect being those who God chose to be saved - which therefore claims that there are those who are NOT chosen. It's still not something I fully grasp by any means, nor could I argue well for one way or the other. My guess is this guy is of the "people do NOT have free will to choose into their salvation" side of things. This may be a slightly large leap, but perhaps if we assume that, then as I said above, it means there are people specifically NOT chosen for salvation. Salvation being eternal life with God... no free will = no eternal life for some people. At least, that would be my guess as to what he means though who knows.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 15:58:42 GMT -6
You're welcome. Ooooooooooooooooooooooo I see what you did thar (That was the appropriate emoticon, right? LOL) I think what he's getting at is just what the "elect" is and whether or not humans have free will to choose to love/know God or not. Theologians have argued until they're blue in the face about predestination vs free will, but I will say that as time passes, I am becoming more and more along the lines of the elect being those who God chose to be saved - which therefore claims that there are those who are NOT chosen. It's still not something I fully grasp by any means, nor could I argue well for one way or the other. Wha.... I don't know what the elect are? I truly believe God chooses who will go to heaven, that's why everyone will eventually get there. (I now need an emoticon of a piano falling)[piano] Edit: There. That's better.
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 19, 2016 16:17:15 GMT -6
Hahahaha a piano falling emoticon would be awesome. Well, I just searched "who are the elect" and this article was one of the first to pop up, which seems to do a good job of explaining who the elect are, and also why free will may not be the most biblically sound. www.gotquestions.org/elect-of-God.htmlOk I actually just finished reading the whole article and think it's very spot-on.
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 19, 2016 16:19:32 GMT -6
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 19, 2016 16:27:00 GMT -6
Sorry for spamming y'all... But this article appears to do a good job of looking at each time in the Bible that the word "elect" is chosen: www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/elect.htmlAlso, sorry for taking this off course some... Though I do think it's relevant to the original topic at hand, as the guy in the other forum had argued in his quoted response to Thomas. I think if we read the three above links I posted, we'll have a basic understanding of predestination/free-will for salvation. So then, how do either of these viewpoints fit in (or not) with Thomas' claims of temporary judgment for some and eternal life with God for all?
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 17:17:10 GMT -6
I'm going to take some time to read those articles before I comment on the free will thing. So then, how do either of these viewpoints fit in (or not) with Thomas' claims of temporary judgment for some and eternal life with God for all? I think the hangup will be the same place it always is. You guys think that once people go hell its automatically an infinite life sentence, while I think that hell is not forever for those that go there... regardless of why someone goes there. One person on the other forum asked me "Then how do you know when they'll get out?" My response: I think we all agree that not accepting Christ and blasphemy are two definite ways to get sent to hell. Its not biblical, but it wouldn't surprise me if even some whopper of temporal sins (like suicide, murder or genocide) would get sentenced to do some time in a hot room.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Sept 19, 2016 19:04:07 GMT -6
Man, I feel like a sizable chunk of this is what I've been harping about in that universalism thread. Specifically, the part on how our will is not stronger than God's, and God in his sovereignty has chosen everyone to be with him in heaven. I can even easily accept God choosing people to go to hell... but again, we're at the typical stopping place, I find no evidence, nor do I believe, that the loving God chooses people to be in hell FOREVER. The free will part is what confuses me still. Of course we have free will (I say that as my bowels make me run to the restroom) and we can make decisions based on every day life and faith. I mean, there seems to be a thin line between 1) God FORCING salvation on someone, and 2) just simply knowing their programming, and that they will undoubtedly have faith. What seems to me is that anyone who is a 1) is merely misinterpreting what they've witnessed of 2) Good grief, I had to autocorrect "merely" and "misinterpreting". Having a rough spelling day there Tom?
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Post by Kerrick on Sept 20, 2016 12:58:12 GMT -6
I mean, there seems to be a thin line between 1) God FORCING salvation on someone, and 2) just simply knowing their programming, and that they will undoubtedly have faith. Yup, that's the age-old disagreement that has been going on for centuries... What seems to me is that anyone who is a 1) is merely misinterpreting what they've witnessed of 2) Maybe... But keep in mind that there are people on both sides of this topic who are much more intelligent than any of us on this board who have dedicated their entire lives to figuring this out.
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