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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 4, 2016 20:39:56 GMT -6
Sweet deal man! Can you make a thread about it so I can learn more? I am way too tired for this right now lol, but I'll try anyway So I think most people know what "anarchy" is, as a general concept, it's the rejection of government. Regular "anarchy" rejects all authority - both human and divine. But Christian anarchy, in particular, is different - it rejects human authority, but not God. We hold that God is the only proper authority in our lives (unless God Himself tells us otherwise - "honor your father and mother"). It's basically just following the Bible like normal, but without a human government getting in the way and telling us that right is wrong, or that wrong is right. Christian Anarchists generally hold that human governments are corrupt, which is clear if you look at the world today. Governments work against God's teachings, passing laws that directly contradict scripture and taking part in wars that only hurt our neighbors (physically and mentally). Governments aren't exempt from the rules God gives us - they don't have the right to decide what's right or wrong - only God does, only God is good, and thus, only God is our authority. So although Jesus teaches, for example, that we should pay taxes, ideally, we wouldn't be living under a human government that taxed us at all. Just because we're told to pay taxes, doesn't mean we need to be taxed - it's the government's decision. We don't have to pay taxes if there are no taxes to pay. Something that's crucially important to note is that Christian Anarchism REJECTS terrorism/extremism/violence. As I said, God is our authority, and in God's word, we are taught to love our neighbors, to turn the other cheek, and to pray for our enemies. Even though we don't agree with human governments, we don't attack or threaten them, or anything. We disagree with them in a Biblical way, not just anger/rebellion for the sake of anger/rebellion. That's not how a Christian should be. We should build each other up, as per Biblical instruction. We should help each other, as per Biblical instruction. I admit, it's pretty idealistic, but it's still the only thing I can honestly stand behind, as a Christian. I can't support democracy, because popular opinion often isn't "right" - we shouldn't be governed by popular opinion. I can't support monarchies, because the tend to not follow God's rules as well. etc etc Also, I guess I should note, "Christian Anarchism" is different from a theocracy - theocracies have governments. I'd also like to point out this, from 1 Samuel 8: Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah and said to him, “Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.” But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”
I hope this helps. I'll try to answer any questions!
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Post by exo on Oct 4, 2016 21:11:12 GMT -6
Interesting.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 4, 2016 21:38:44 GMT -6
Thanks for posting!!! I have two questions. (I hope they're not interpreted as rocking the boat, my motive is genuine curiosity.)
#1 - how does Christian anarchy relate to these verses?
1st Peter 2 13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.
Romans 13 1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
#2 - How do you react to the modern corporate church model? I mean, with elders and deacons and treasurers and senior pastors "above" the congregation, clearly there's a hierarchy of human authority there. Do you think church should be completely different than what it currently is?
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Oct 4, 2016 22:57:40 GMT -6
Romans 13 1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. I don't really know if context matters there - I've heard that with some other instructions Paul gave, they were only meant for the place he was writing to. Even if that's not the case though, I think of North Korea, where Christianity is illegal. (They have "churches", but they're just for show. For tourists.) Certainly it wouldn't be right for the people there to reject God and go against His teachings just because the Kim dynasty told them to, and God hasn't removed the Kim dynasty from power yet? I also go back to 1 Samuel 8, where God only appointed a king over (ancient) Israel because they "rejected [Him] from being king over them". That tells me that we should let God be king in our lives, and that if we do, we don't need human authority. About 1 Peter 2, I also saw an interesting point online - that both Jesus and Paul were wrongfully murdered by "governing authorities". So taking those verses at face value doesn't seem correct. Come to think of it, I also think of how God punished (ancient) Israel for idolatry/sin whenever certain kings led the people astray. They did as the king asked, but God still punished them for not following what God taught them to do. So while I don't really know how to take those verses in Romans 13 or 1 Peter 2, I don't think we should take them at face-value. #2 - How do you react to the modern corporate church model? I mean, with elders and deacons and treasurers and senior pastors "above" the congregation, clearly there's a hierarchy of human authority there. Do you think church should be completely different than what it currently is? I'm not opposed to pastors, but that might just be because I'm used to having one. At my church (a Protestant church), it doesn't seem like anyone really "has authority" over anyone else. We have a yearly meeting where we vote on various things, and if anyone wants to be a deacon or something, they can usually be elected to the position. There are conditions, but I don't really know how they work. It's not like an "exclusive club" type of thing, though. Personally, I kind of like having a pastor, because I like having someone with more experience that I can talk to about theological things, and I like hearing what our pastor has to say each week. Other Christian Anarchists might disagree with me on that.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Oct 5, 2016 10:06:51 GMT -6
So while I don't really know how to take those verses in Romans 13 or 1 Peter 2, I don't think we should take them at face-value. A lot of the Bible is that way, which really complicates things towards those who don't understand context. Actually, the only time its not complicated is when we're obviously doing the right thing (faith and works) as directed in the Holy Book. When our hearts guide us towards what we think is not wrong (ie: you rejecting human authority, me rejecting eternal torment) then its easy to combat it with context because texts from thousands of years ago won't exactly counterpoint. ...its our contexts counterpointing each other. Personally, I disagree with dismissing human authority altogether... but that doesn't mean I think you're wrong for doing so. If anarchy is the corner where your faith takes you, then God bless you. You have my support. I have no authority (pun intended) to pull you away from that, despite verses which I honestly do take at face value... because they're still applicable in our times, in my opinion. __________________________ I got to be honest, when I first heard the term "Christian anarchy", I couldn't help but think of the connotations the term "anarchy" has. Yes, the literal definition is rejecting authority, but that A word is tied to a lot of war and acts of rebellion. When I have a mental image of a satanist, its some dude in a black robe being butthurt his after school program isn't as cool as the Christian one. When I have a mental image of an anarchist, its a dude with a giant circle A on the back of his biker jacket, who has spray-painted "fuck the police" on more than one building...
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Post by thevociferator on Oct 5, 2016 10:49:42 GMT -6
Btw Nocturnal Iridescence, I was the one who introduced Thomas to Christian Anarchism. What I know about the topic stems from this. www.google.com/amp/s/joshdies.com/2015/01/14/what-should-we-call-christian-anarchism/amp/?client=ms-android-motorolaWritten by the vocalist of showbread. Haha! My friend Michael from Rotting Serpent also dabbled in the idea. And I have several other friends complacent with American government and agree that fixing the government is not an important priority as Christians. These friends ranging in ages from 30 to 60, so mature christian adults who are my mentors.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Nov 21, 2016 19:29:54 GMT -6
I found this the other day: Hosea 8:4The people have appointed kings without my consent, and princes without my knowledge. By making idols for themselves from their silver and gold, they have brought about their own destruction.
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