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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 24, 2017 15:41:42 GMT -6
Just thought I'd bring this up for discussion - get you folk's feedback. There's a thread on the CMR regarding Tim Lambesis from As I Lay Dying. If you haven't heard, he was convicted several years ago in a murder-for-hire plot to kill his wife and did a few years in prison from it - got out just before Christmas last year, if I remember correctly. Apparently, he's a Christian "again" and working on new Christian metal. Some people are more than "reluctant" to listen to / support his new music, considering what he did / went to prison for. What's your view? a) Would you listen to Christian music regardless of what the artist does/has done in their life? b) ...or would you stay away from something that has a pretty big sin in proximity? I'll save my 2 cents for another post.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 17:03:23 GMT -6
Depends - and would be a question of 'gut feeling' for me (concerning music and whatever background in general). If I was kind of 'disgusted' for whatever reason, I wouldn't enjoy the music anyway.
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Post by Kerrick on Feb 24, 2017 17:53:42 GMT -6
I think Exo said it pretty well over on CMR. Distinguishing between the quality of art and the enjoyment of that art is key. Some Polish Satanic neo-nazi black metal album could be a 10/10 due to superior song writing, musicianship, and the like... but I may never be able to enjoy it because any time I hear it, the knowledge of their evil and hate gets in the way for me. And that's going to change person by person. Thomas, you obviously don't have that problem*. Many others do. Is one way or the other wrong? That's been debated here and over on CMR numerous times and to no avail haha. I'm not sure what else there is to say on this topic! *The word "problem" may not be the right choice, but you get the idea.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 24, 2017 18:14:26 GMT -6
Depends - and would be a question of 'gut feeling' for me (concerning music and whatever background in general). If I was kind of 'disgusted' for whatever reason, I wouldn't enjoy the music anyway. Do you have an example? _____________________________________ I'm wondering if some of the regulars are thinking this thread is rigged. LOL Not my intention! Myself, obviously, I've got a "secular switch" which turns off the Christian (faith) boundaries and turns on the horror (entertainment). I don't have a problem listening to satanic black metal, so of course I'd never have a problem with a Christian project. I think what's just confused me with this topic is this core: a person's actions, stops their "enjoyment" of art and destroys the spiritual value of it As I Lay Dying is my specific example for this thread, I guess. Like if I really like music by Tim Lambesis, and he's got a new Christian metal album coming out, but because he tried to hire someone to kill his wife 4 years ago, I'm going to avoid listening to it, liking it, supporting it, acknowledging it, whatever else... I don't get "that", and I've seen it done by others. It just seems judgemental to me. If we would have never known this about him, it would be no question on whether or not to buy another solid release he was a part of. Its like there's speculation he hasn't changed? ...or his sin was too different from our sins? Somehow seen as hypocritical to listen to Christian music made by someone who recently wasn't? Christians don't listen to music made by criminals? There's some secret criminal message between the Christian lyrics? I've entertained more extreme examples, like if there existed an awesome Christian black metal band notorious for actively committing crimes. (what are they doing but somehow still releasing albums? Anything you want - its a hypothetical. Murdering people, abusing kids, something else gross...) On one side, that doesn't really change the message in that art for me. We all sin, some sin differently and a persons actions doesn't change the message in what the draw/play/create/etc. On the other side, there's my "secular switch", because evil can appear holy and be beguiling, and a Christian black metal band killing people would certainly qualify as horror.
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Post by Kerrick on Feb 24, 2017 18:59:57 GMT -6
We all sin, some sin differently... True... but that brings to the question of unrepentant sin. Biblically speaking, there's a HUGE difference and there is quite a bit written about it - specifically with regards to "the church" and how we should handle it amongst fellow believers (and those who claim to be). Our current western culture is very much "you keep to your business and I'll keep to mine" though within the context of the church, I believe pretty strongly that that is NOT how we are to act. Judging one's soul is strictly between the person and God. But judging their actions, or "fruits," is a community affair (at least, according to God's Word, it should be). I suppose that's all a bit of a tangent... but I guess all that to say, yes it may be "judgemental" to say that someone is in sin, but that is not wrong. With regards to the topic at hand though... consider this: God is not after solely our actions. There are plenty of "good" people doing "good" things but at the end of the day, through God's Word we know that good deeds on their own mean nothing. I think we can all agree on that, yeah? That's pretty central to traditional Christian beliefs. Ok, so with that in mind - and knowing that man is created in God's image - it's natural to conclude that we may be built in a similar fashion: that there is something within us that mirrors our Creator which causes us to look beyond the outward actions and love - or abhor - what is deeper within and motivating the person in question. I'm just thinking "out loud" so I apologize if that's not too coherent haha. But something to think about anyways.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 19:07:22 GMT -6
Depends - and would be a question of 'gut feeling' for me (concerning music and whatever background in general). If I was kind of 'disgusted' for whatever reason, I wouldn't enjoy the music anyway. Do you have an example? _____________________________________ NSBM. Can't stand it, don't want to hear it. Or, let's say, IF there was a Christian Death/Black Metal band that regularly posted homophobic stuff on Facebook, I wouldn't be interested in listening to their music. Not because of any 'I would like to, but I think I shouldn't', but simply because: I don't wanna (gut feeling).
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 24, 2017 22:44:19 GMT -6
I don't care what he did in his past if he's sorry for it / is repenting from it, but just going by what you said, I find it hard to believe that he would commit such a serious crime and convert just as he got out of prison. (Unless I don't have the full story?) Isn't this the guy who said he was agnostic and just stayed in the Christian scene for money? The fact that he's recording "new Christian metal" right away makes me suspicious. I won't make assumptions either way. We'll see.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 6:12:59 GMT -6
In terms of Lambesis this came across my mind, too. It's at least an interesting coincidence that he rediscovered his Christian belief just in that moment (?) when he's out there to make music again (and has to make a living once again). But only he knows, so it's rather pointless to comment on it anyway.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 25, 2017 9:28:02 GMT -6
That's the thing that gets me. It's NOT KNOWN how repentant/changed Lambesis is... but people ASSUME he isn't and are suspicious?
I mean, if we're going to hold what Tim did against his music, then why not hold my drunk aggravated battery from 12 years ago against Orationem?
If it's different because you "know" me and I've changed, and don't "know" Tim, then how is this really a matter of faith? If it's based on personal knowledge, then it's a personal issue!
If we're going to hold what Tim did personally against his business/music, then shouldn't we all stop drinking Pepsi because the CEO of PepsiCo is an outspoken advocate of Hinduism?
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Post by barabbas on Feb 25, 2017 9:38:18 GMT -6
That's the thing that gets me. It's NOT KNOWN how repentant/changed Lambesis is... but people ASSUME he isn't and are suspicious? I think the problem with Lambesis in particular is that he had been acting erratically and deceptively before the trial and ever since. I agree that most aren't in a position to make a helpful judgment about his faith (and naturally only God really knows). In his case, the problem is that he had been approaching his faith in a very confusing manner in public even prior to the arrest. I certainly have music I won't listen to because of the content or the lifestyle of the artists. At least one consideration for me is that there is so much music out there, I'll never be short. I can't even really listen to everything that's currently in my collection. I don't feel the need to add things to the mix that are questionable for whatever reason. Perhaps I try to handle it like a car wreck: "move along folks, nothing to see here."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 9:48:12 GMT -6
I mean, if we're going to hold what Tim did against his music, then why not hold my drunk aggravated battery from 12 years ago against Orationem? If it's different because you "know" me and I've changed, and don't "know" Tim, then how is this really a matter of faith? If it's based on personal knowledge, then it's a personal issue! Well...yes, part of the reason is because we know you due to this forum, but it's also because it was 12 years ago. Tim just got out of prison, which makes me more suspicious.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 25, 2017 10:17:02 GMT -6
Yeah, but what he did was 4 years ago. He had plenty of time to change his way, especially sitting in a cell.
I did a lot of thinking when I was in a cell too. It's not like there's anything else to do.
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Post by Bartimaeus on Feb 25, 2017 11:44:06 GMT -6
You'll know a tree by it's fruit. If he's truly changed, it will show. I'm as thankful for grace and forgiveness as anyone, but it can and should take time to repair a reputation. Color me skeptical. I'll check back in on him in a while.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 25, 2017 11:46:18 GMT -6
I mean, if we're going to hold what Tim did against his music, then why not hold my drunk aggravated battery from 12 years ago against Orationem? If it's different because you "know" me and I've changed, and don't "know" Tim, then how is this really a matter of faith? If it's based on personal knowledge, then it's a personal issue! If you had a history of lying about your sobriety and then, say, getting in drunken bar fights a few days later, I would probably be more suspicious if you claimed you were sober again. It just seems like a "too good to be true" sort of thing, especially since he can continue making money off his music, which (as I recall) was his motivation to lie about his beliefs in the past. Maybe I just have trust issues. I don't know.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 25, 2017 15:09:05 GMT -6
If you had a history of lying about your sobriety and then, say, getting in drunken bar fights a few days later, I would probably be more suspicious if you claimed you were sober again. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people who would associate ANY cannabis use as throwing sobriety into the abyss, despite intention. (intention ie: using cannabis for relief of pain vs. using alcohol to get wasted) Can't say I agree with that? I mean, its been proven that being awake for longer than 24 hours impairs someone as much as being drunk, so... is someone who didn't sleep not sober either? especially since he can continue making money off his music, which (as I recall) was his motivation to lie about his beliefs in the past. So being suspicious of Tim's new Christian music doesn't have to do with what he went to jail for, but if he's actually a Christian now? Do I have that right? Or does the murder for hire still play a part in avoiding his new music? Are some of you ok with his sin, but not faking faith while others are ok with faked faith but can't get over his sin? LOL - I still don't get it. Unless I haven't been clear, I don't see anything wrong with non-Christians producing Christian music. I know we all like to think that Christian music is a ministry of some sort, and we assume Christian music ONLY comes from Christians, but at its core, its no different than secular music in regards to the business aspects of it. All music is produced to be appealing to a market crowd, sold is for entertainment purposes and there is intention to gain a profit. (sure, there might be a stipulation where proceeds go towards something nice, but the "business model" is still there) Excluding product and price differences, there is no alternate experience between shopping at a CD store owned by a Christian vs. one owned by an atheist. So why does what the producer believes or doesn't believe matter? Its still the same music and lyrics in the package... I've got a question about Roger Martinez from Vengeance Rising. Lots of Christian metal heads still listen to that, even though he hasn't been a Christian for years. How is listening to Christian metal from someone no longer a Christian a green light, but listening to Christian metal from someone who faked being a Christian (but is supposedly a Christian now) a red light? Is it because Roger was "verified" as a Christian for those releases, but Tim wasn't for his? If time frame matters and someone is anti-pot, is 2015 Orationem ok but 2016 Orationem isn't? Sorry - I really don't understand the logic here. _____________________________ For the record, I want to say I fully respect the right for any of you guys to listen to or not listen to anything for whatever reason. ...likewise, I hope I'm given the same respect for calling the behavior of my brothers as unusual? unexplained? when, to me, it looks unusual/unexplained. [yum]
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 15:33:59 GMT -6
I think the intention of the artist is what matters a lot. Let's assume for a second that Tim is actually not a Christian and is making "Christian" metal because he thinks it will be more profitable. I wouldn't listen to it because it isn't genuine. Now let's assume that Tim really is a Christian and this is his way of expressing that he has repented. In that case, the music is genuine, and I would listen to it. What he did in the past specifically is not what matters to me. It's whether or not he's repented of it, and right now, I'm too skeptical to fully believe that he has.
As for bands with members who are no longer Christians (like Bleakwail and Light Shall Prevail), I have no problem listening to their music as long as it's from the "Christian era" of the band and I have no reason to suspect that they were just faking it at the time.
It's about authenticity. I'd rather listen to "safe secular" music than fake Christian music.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 18:48:49 GMT -6
To me the key is that there isn't really a need for logic. If we were talking about universal laws ('thou shall not listen to band xyz'), then some kind of logic and a good chain of reasoning would be needed. But - at least for me - this is all about: I don't want to, because in the first place I don't want to. There reasons that are good enough for me. Some people might share this point of view, others don't.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 25, 2017 18:54:05 GMT -6
I think the intention of the artist is what matters a lot. It's about authenticity. I'd rather listen to "safe secular" music than fake Christian music. I think what you said right here has made more sense in explaining the "why" to this than what else I've read. Not surprising, since you've obviously got a way with words. :B It's whether or not he's repented of it, and right now, I'm too skeptical to fully believe that he has. I can't find any information on his "mega record deal" that he signed, but if it is a Christian release, how do we know if its the fruits of a changed man, or he's just trying to cash in? For me, I don't feel right being suspicious of him. ...for one, why lean toward doubt when he hasn't said anything either way? For two, I know what its like to be on the receiving end of that doubt despite years of "change". 4 years sober, my brother still wouldn't talk to me and seemed (by proxy from others) to believe I was bound to get drunk again any minute now.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 25, 2017 21:05:35 GMT -6
So being suspicious of Tim's new Christian music doesn't have to do with what he went to jail for, but if he's actually a Christian now? Do I have that right? For me personally, yeah. No, the murder for hire thing doesn't play a part in it. That'd be pretty hypocritical of me, honestly. I've never taken out a hit on anyone, sure, but I'm still no less of a sinner than he is. I've got a question about Roger Martinez from Vengeance Rising. Lots of Christian metal heads still listen to that, even though he hasn't been a Christian for years. How is listening to Christian metal from someone no longer a Christian a green light, but listening to Christian metal from someone who faked being a Christian (but is supposedly a Christian now) a red light? For me, personally, it's not a green light. I don't listen to Vengeance Rising for that very reason; same with other bands that went down similar paths, like Flaskavsae and Swine Suicide.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Feb 26, 2017 16:48:32 GMT -6
For me personally, yeah. No, the murder for hire thing doesn't play a part in it. That'd be pretty hypocritical of me, honestly. I've never taken out a hit on anyone, sure, but I'm still no less of a sinner than he is. The thing is, there's no evidence that he is truly reformed, or isn't... so all we have is speculation. Do we doubt first and put him through the trials of our boundaries before we give him a chance? ...or do we put some good faith in that he has changed, and risk being duped? For me, the choice between the two is extremely easy. Its good for the soul to trust people's intentions. If they prove to be untrustworthy again, that's their fault for regressing - not our fault for trusting. If everyone doubted me after I failed to stop drinking all the attempts I tried, I wouldn't be here as I am now. In fact, I may not even be here at all. I don't listen to Vengeance Rising for that very reason; same with other bands that went down similar paths, like Flaskavsae and Swine Suicide. One of my former friends (former because he's not a Christian anymore and won't talk to me because I am) has boycotted Cradle of Filth until the end of time because the drummer didn't talk to him after a show. ("a" show as in 1 show) We're talking, he wouldn't listen to them, destroyed all his CoF merch, the whole 9 yards. (No element of faith in this example, but I'm sure you get the parallel) That just seems like shooting yourself in the foot and expecting the other person to hop around. I mean, its good to have standards and to stick to them, but... the bands you mentioned have Christian albums, and you're missing out on enjoying them (if you enjoy them) because of something unrelated to said published music. I say that because people change, CDs don't. My experience, reservations like these are resentments in disguise - and resentment only consumes the vessel that contains it. You're certainly welcome to and have every right to feel the way you do, but... I don't understand it one bit, and I don't feel that way at all.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Feb 26, 2017 21:54:18 GMT -6
My experience, reservations like these are resentments in disguise - and resentment only consumes the vessel that contains it. It's not resentment (for me personally), it's that I know their music was created with a mindset that ultimately led away from God Music has a message, and I can't separate the music from that "message". I also just feel a lot of negativity when I listen to their music. I never really listened to Vengeance Rising, but definitely with Flaskavsae and Swine Suicide, their old music just feels unpleasant to me. And I mean, this is coming from the guy who made "Catacomb ep" lol, and I get that, but ... it's just different somehow. Catacomb ep has a "clarity" or "cleanness" to it that I don't feel with a lot of other dark music.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 17:04:36 GMT -6
a) Would you listen to Christian music regardless of what the artist does/has done in their life? I probably would, yes, so long as the music made me "feel something." Of course, I'm thinking in more of a Black Metal context, where it's not unexpected to come across extreme ideas or occurences. Keeping in mind that I've done some pretty messed up stuff in the past, I certainly can't judge someone else for the crap they might've done. When I first heard about this, I wondered if it might have been the thing to bring Tim back from the edge, to wake him up. Of course... I wonder how his wife feels. I still listen to Burzum, so....
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Post by Deepfriar on Mar 25, 2017 1:02:30 GMT -6
Oh wow, I'm just now seeing this thread. Not surprising since my visiting the boards is a bit sporadic. I have to agree with Thomas here, I will give someone the benefit of the doubt every single time when it comes to Christ and forgiveness (unless it's a blatantly flippant repeat offender). Jesus said the more we are forgiven the more we love (Luke 7:47) and I agree with Thomas in that I wouldn't feel right judging his faith at this point in time.
Oh and, SWEEEEEEEET I'm very excited to listen to Tim's new stuff! Very stoked, not only because I love As I Lay Dying, but because Tim has recently been through a lot and had a lot of time to think, and that usually means an emotionally charged metal record. Keep me posted on this because I'm definitely buying Tim's new music.
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Post by Deepfriar on Mar 25, 2017 7:29:22 GMT -6
I actually can't find an announcement that he is going to be doing Christian music again. Where is that info coming from?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 15:18:26 GMT -6
I'll give Tim the benefit of the doubt as well. I think he could be sincere in his repentance. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Tim fell hard. Influenced by drugs. Prison can be a road to redemption.
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