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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Jun 2, 2018 17:37:32 GMT -6
There did not seem to be a good thread for this topic, so I figured I would make one. As with many on this site, I do like the band, in fact, I am listening to their demo as we speak, but I figure the recent post made by the band will cause some controversy within the scene. I figured there should be a platform to discuss it on this site.
Some interesting points are made, many with which I agree. However, I need some time to process all that is being said before I come to a full conclusion. I am curious about the reactions of the rest of you.
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Post by frozenfire on Jun 2, 2018 18:36:56 GMT -6
For me, I had not delved into their music beyond just checking it out. I didn't see what they were doing as "Christian" in a notable way but being on Vision of God made for some natural assumptions. Still, the fact that their message was more esoteric and Sakis from Rotting Christ did vocals for them also speaks to the band's comments coming as no surprise. Yes I know that Hellhammer did drums for Antestor but pounding drums is a little different than singing the lyrics.
This band is probably more in line with Revulsed where, if there is a message it's not "Christian" though it may have a veiled bend that way in some cases. Both bands had vocalists that would reject Christ personally but where okay with the "anti" and "depravity" minded messages.
Curious where this goes from here.
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Jun 2, 2018 18:52:25 GMT -6
It seems the post has been deleted.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Jun 2, 2018 20:30:03 GMT -6
^ Yep, the post has been deleted. Not sure why - whether it was too controversial or what.
To summarize, the post was in response to some questions about symbolism on the band's Facebook and merchandise. (A couple of those questions were mine, but if anyone was wondering, I wasn't being accusatory or anything, I was just curious.) It started out as just explaining some of the symbols. Some of the symbols have distinct meanings (like some of their shirts criticizing the Roman Catholic papacy), some don't (like a couple sigils they've used which are just stylized versions of words/names)
I can confirm that all members of Temple of Perdition identify as Christian. But they want to take the approach of being "Christians in a band" rather than "a Christian band". I don't agree with some of their decisions, but the core of their faith is set in God's ways. This part is difficult to explain without quoting private messages, and I don't want to share our conversations here without permission. But to put it really basically, the philosophy behind the messages I've received, lines up with the same teachings God has taught me these past few years.
Yaakov also said in the thread, in a roundabout way, that Jesus' name wasn't actually Jesus, which is true. The name "Jesus" is the result of Latin and Greek translations / transliterations. His birth name was "Yeshua" or "Yahshua" or something more like that.
The band is "anti-religious" in the same sense that some of the South American bands like Crucifijo Impudico are "anti-religious". There's a TON of debate about the word "religion". But basically, the stance Temple of Perdition (etc) take, is that "religion" refers to man-made systems of control; the mundane and selfish things that mankind uses for their own purposes, but try to blend spiritual or theological themes in with it. This is in contrast (most often) to "real Christianity", which is the true faith one finds in a relationship with the true triune God, independent of human ideas.
If the band has anything more to say than this, I'm sure they can make another post, on Facebook or somewhere else.
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Jun 2, 2018 21:16:17 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing. I figured their intended meaning was something like that, but I know many people would disagree on some points (including myself and you, as you stated).
I do think the point about the name was stated in such a way to draw controversy, however. The linguistic point in valid, but I would not, for example, tell a Chinese Christian that they do not believe in Jesus Christ/Yeshua because they call him Yesu Jidu.
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Jun 2, 2018 22:21:16 GMT -6
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Post by Deepfriar on Jun 2, 2018 22:35:45 GMT -6
Yeah, I mean, some of what was said has shades of truth. Jesus is the Messiah and it's just our language's iteration of the name. I don't think it's necessary to press the issue that He needs to be called by His Jewish name. It does seem like some of his beliefs are mystic and esoteric (borderline Kabbalah?). Seems like some confusion is created unnecessarily. I think I would ask him point blank if he believes that God became flesh and walked among us and allowed Himself to be put to death to pay the price for our sins, and if He rose again on the third day. I think those are critical facets of Christian faith. Great music, though.
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Post by Deepfriar on Jun 2, 2018 22:44:16 GMT -6
Okay yeah the post is gone now. Anyone have it saved?
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Post by Deepfriar on Jun 3, 2018 3:33:36 GMT -6
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Post by frozenfire on Jun 3, 2018 4:30:32 GMT -6
^ Yep, the post has been deleted. Not sure why - whether it was too controversial or what. To summarize, the post was in response to some questions about symbolism on the band's Facebook and merchandise. (A couple of those questions were mine, but if anyone was wondering, I wasn't being accusatory or anything, I was just curious.) It started out as just explaining some of the symbols. Some of the symbols have distinct meanings (like some of their shirts criticizing the Roman Catholic papacy), some don't (like a couple sigils they've used which are just stylized versions of words/names) I can confirm that all members of Temple of Perdition identify as Christian. But they want to take the approach of being "Christians in a band" rather than "a Christian band". I don't agree with some of their decisions, but the core of their faith is set in God's ways. This part is difficult to explain without quoting private messages, and I don't want to share our conversations here without permission. But to put it really basically, the philosophy behind the messages I've received, lines up with the same teachings God has taught me these past few years. Yaakov also said in the thread, in a roundabout way, that Jesus' name wasn't actually Jesus, which is true. The name "Jesus" is the result of Latin and Greek translations / transliterations. His birth name was "Yeshua" or "Yahshua" or something more like that. The band is "anti-religious" in the same sense that some of the South American bands like Crucifijo Impudico are "anti-religious". There's a TON of debate about the word "religion". But basically, the stance Temple of Perdition (etc) take, is that "religion" refers to man-made systems of control; the mundane and selfish things that mankind uses for their own purposes, but try to blend spiritual or theological themes in with it. This is in contrast (most often) to "real Christianity", which is the true faith one finds in a relationship with the true triune God, independent of human ideas. If the band has anything more to say than this, I'm sure they can make another post, on Facebook or somewhere else. Thanks for the explanation! It seems that was the bend of the band considering their imagery. Still curious where all this is headed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2018 5:22:58 GMT -6
I think this is a temporary mindset. Reading his post he truly believes in God as his Saviour. But I think if you ask him in 5 years how he sees the theories it might be gravely changed and have a more regular approach.
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Post by Deepfriar on Jun 3, 2018 5:53:56 GMT -6
I think this is a temporary mindset. Reading his post he truly believes in God as his Saviour. But I think if you ask him in 5 years how he sees the theories it might be gravely changed and have a more regular approach. Yeah, he seems to be taking an academic approach to spiritual matters which is a phase that I went through as well when I began seeking God in my adult life. Some of what he says about invoking power based on what name you use when you call upon God concerns me for him: "Everything boils down to the most simplistic detail. To change one minor detail can change an entire result in which the power of God is manifest. The only difference between the Priesthood of God and that of Witchcraft is the invocation of the power called forth." I disagree with the above. I believe that if you call upon the name of Jesus it is the same as calling upon Yahoshua, Yeshua, whatever you prefer. I believe God meets you where you are at, in whatever language or translation your learning has given you access to. The idea that you need to get the name right (in the original language) to tap into the true power of God sounds like mysticism and that rabbit hole can lead down a path of doctrinal error and one must be careful. I do think his heart is in the right place though and that goes a long way.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2018 7:06:55 GMT -6
Yeah, he seems to be taking an academic approach to spiritual matters which is a phase that I went through as well when I began seeking God in my adult life. Some of what he says about invoking power based on what name you use when you call upon God concerns me for him: "Everything boils down to the most simplistic detail. To change one minor detail can change an entire result in which the power of God is manifest. The only difference between the Priesthood of God and that of Witchcraft is the invocation of the power called forth." I disagree with the above. I believe that if you call upon the name of Jesus it is the same as calling upon Yahoshua, Yeshua, whatever you prefer. I believe God meets you where you are at, in whatever language or translation your learning has given you access to. The idea that you need to get the name right (in the original language) to tap into the true power of God sounds like mysticism and that rabbit hole can lead down a path of doctrinal error and one must be careful. I do think his heart is in the right place though and that goes a long way. Yes. That is what I meant. I think it comes over as if it is a phase in his life to become an adult... christian. Perhaps it is quite naturally that personal views change from time to time to mature your faith. As years go by I think his will change or maybe mature more too in time.
I also agree on your second half of your post. Here in the Netherlands His Name is Jezus. And when I say Jezus here everyone knows Who I mean. No questions. So I think it might be irrelevant which translation you'd use. But his heart really seems to be on the right place, so I am not really worried about it. Maybe I just give it another spin... haha .
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Jun 3, 2018 10:07:16 GMT -6
The linguistic point in valid, but I would not, for example, tell a Chinese Christian that they do not believe in Jesus Christ/Yeshua because they call him Yesu Jidu. This is a surprisingly common mindset. Not so much in the metal scene I guess, but other places. Some think it's very important which names you ascribe to things - names, presumably, being viewed as concepts in and of themselves, rather than mere phonetic sounds. And it seems from the page Deepfriar linked above, I was right about that. ("Moshiach ben Yosef or Yehoshua which is the proper name for Messiah") Also, I'm curious what was in the post you made about 11 hours ago, that was deleted?
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Post by Borndead on Jun 3, 2018 12:19:59 GMT -6
When he just started out I´ve had a little chat with him, and this is what he send me in a private message. "The band does not identify as a Christian project. However, Myself and the other people in the project are followers of Messiah. Joonas comes from the band Angel of Sodom and our vocals comes from a very Christian band. I do not know if he wants that out yet. I do not really identify as either or. That is mainly semantics. IN your terms I am Christian but in my terms I would rather not use labels that were defined as derogatory when originally said. I lean more towards a non-western subscription of messiah rather than what we all see today. I am more Hebrew Roots moment. You will see that in a huge way in upcoming tracks. The project will not talk and glorify haSatan in any way but that of the ruach hakodesh. Some of the track may seem very dark but you have to understand my past. You will notice that in the music itself there is a great deal of Darkness and Light elements. the Beast and beauty so to speak. These are emotional states of my life. I once was the beast but now in the light. We have a track called Adonai that talks about this struggle that has not been released yet. ."
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Post by frozenfire on Jun 3, 2018 16:16:07 GMT -6
This is highly interesting. Great points from those above and a very enlightening look into this. Seems like intentions are great behind this project despite some of the questions that have arisen.
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Post by Borndead on May 18, 2019 21:47:31 GMT -6
Yaakov has a new book that he has put together in association with Middle Path Ministries. Just finished reading it, my head does hurt a bit. But the info provided I´ve truly needed and am sure many will need as well READ HERE
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Post by Deepfriar on Jun 3, 2019 21:14:28 GMT -6
What's the deal with ToP calling it quits already?
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Jun 3, 2019 22:39:45 GMT -6
He did the same thing a couple of months ago.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 4, 2019 8:45:18 GMT -6
What's the deal with ToP calling it quits already? I looked on Facebook, looks like it has to do with money issues, hence why he's trying to sell everything. Its sad when "finances" or lack thereof, ends up being the death of a band. He did the same thing a couple of months ago. Really? I figure the recent post made by the band will cause some controversy within the scene. I missed this thread somehow, but anyway, I have 2 cents about all of this - for what its worth to anyone else here or reading. Anytime "Christian" bands bring "theology" into their art, or their discussions socially online, there will almost always be a divide in the community over it. Scripture interpretations and hearts differ, and some people, these documented rules are of a level of importance worth being a "dealbreaker". I know of ONE person who essentially recoiled from anything ToP because of their stance on "sacred name theology". Myself, I don't personally believe if Yeshua isn't used, then we're not even using "the real name", but I'm no judge, and would feel like any pushback with my opinion, would only further stir the pot. Anything that's a dig at catholics? Meh. Still not to the caliber of a Metanoia track from back in the day, IMO. Questionable symbols or symbolism? Meh. I probably don't give "symbols" the power that some people do. As a side note, I've seen some recent and not so recent studies that no one ever really wins an argument - ever. I'll leave you gents to look at this yourselves online (its not hard to find if you look for it) but when 2 people swing differing points at each other, the end results are basically 1) agree to disagree 2) both sides disagree and there may or may not be avoidance of each other There's some psychology behind someone with a "this is my point" that undeniable proof saying otherwise is met with an only further reinforced point. I'm reluctant to throw 100% at this, but of all the examples I've seen and participated in myself, I can't think of even ONE argument where one person says to a different point, "golly gee, I never thought of it that way. I'm going to completely agree with you now." Anyway, I'll say this one last thing and then I'll shut up. Christian music is a subjective concept. - Christians in a band - undeniable Christian lyrics with the music - "its Christian when I hear it" (artist intent has no bearing) poTAYto, poTAHto, IMO This is something I don't take with utmost seriousness anymore. Besides, its not like any Mortification CD will go to heaven because its "saved" (Christian)...
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Post by Deepfriar on Jun 4, 2019 8:52:01 GMT -6
Yikes, yeah that does suck I hate to see he is having so many financial problems and personal issues but it's good that he's able to recognize that he may need to readjust his priorities to try to save his family. I'll be praying for him.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Jun 4, 2019 11:10:01 GMT -6
He did the same thing a couple of months ago. It's not really the same thing. The first time, he said the band was in danger of ending, and money was raised via a donation page, to keep it going. This time, he's just come right out and said it's over, and that he's selling all of his musical equipment.
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Post by nocturnaliridescence on Jun 5, 2019 10:36:37 GMT -6
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 10, 2019 8:05:29 GMT -6
Oof.
Ok, I'm happy if ToP ends up surviving its financial trials.... don't misread me on that....
...but several scenarios in several months of "It might end", "This could end folks.", "Sorry its ending.", "UPDATE! Maybe it won't end?" just seems like there's something flighty/washy afoot.
I'm not talking about the circumstances at all, but the announcements approach. I'd rather have by source band news "researched" and "factual" delivered later, than "hype", "if", and "maybe" delivered sooner.
Just my 2 cents.
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Post by julienbakerfan on Jun 10, 2019 8:26:33 GMT -6
Would it really be heaven without Mortification? Agree. It would be nice if someone involved with the band other than Yaakov made a relevant announcement. Trust but verify.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Jun 10, 2019 8:35:50 GMT -6
Would it really be heaven without Mortification? Oh, I wouldn't doubt for a second that the Mortification band members would be in God's presence one day... Sign me up for eternal live performances of the first 3 releases please. ...but the published Mortification CDs making it from earth to heaven? If that's on the table then.... I hope the old push mower I had break down last year makes it too. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
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Post by Kaiheijinshu on Jun 10, 2019 8:42:08 GMT -6
Oof. Ok, I'm happy if ToP ends up surviving its financial trials.... don't misread me on that.... ...but several scenarios in several months of "It might end", "This could end folks.", "Sorry its ending.", "UPDATE! Maybe it won't end?" just seems like there's something flighty/washy afoot. I'm not talking about the circumstances at all, but the announcements approach. I'd rather have by source band news "researched" and "factual" delivered later, than "hype", "if", and "maybe" delivered sooner. Just my 2 cents. That is almost exactly my thoughts as well, as you probably gathered from my last comment.
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Post by Borndead on Aug 5, 2019 13:12:17 GMT -6
"It might end", "This could end folks.", "Sorry its ending.", "UPDATE! Maybe it won't end?" just seems like there's something flighty/washy afoot. He just posted on FB that he´ll finish the "Inheritance of Lies" album. Honestly, the only reason I´m not calling ToP a scam is because Ronny Hasen & Luke Reno are involved, I even ordered their vinyl 2 months ago but no update I don´t want to be an ass, because life happens to all of us, and we handle it differently but come on.
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Post by Thomas Eversole on Aug 6, 2019 13:13:36 GMT -6
I even ordered their vinyl 2 months ago but no update Pre-order? In my opinion, pre-orders are the bane of the music market place economy.
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Post by Borndead on Aug 8, 2019 11:45:11 GMT -6
Usually I only pre-order trusted bands/labels, in this case I´ve heard the album and love it so no reason to not pre-order it.
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